 Re: rescue vs. breeder
[Re: steve strom ]
#203496 - 07/31/2008 12:08 PM |
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I doubt things are just that absolute with any living creature.
Yep.
There are dogs with mental illness that present with aggression issues that no amount of training can fix.
It's funny, but when I see trainers that claim that any aggression issue can be repaired through training, that trainer is always a pet trainer without much experience.
After they have trained enough dogs, they'll stop making silly claims like that.
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Re: rescue vs. breeder
[Re: Janice Jarman ]
#203499 - 07/31/2008 12:11 PM |
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I agree with Jennifer with a correct training and skills. I do believe you can control dominant aggressive dogs; however, there always will be precautions. I don't see anything wrong with isolation. It only removes the trigger source, but you are not curing the dog's problem. A good example is looking at Cesar Milian.
He has been so successful rehabilitating dog fighters from the street which not so many trainers were able to do. It seems like many trainers and behaviorists are more comfortable to put dog down for aggression issues or find a home that doesn't have anything to trigger the aggression such as eating alone, isolated from other dogs,and staying away from kids/people, etc. Cesar mended ex fighters with his thirty plus pack dogs. I'm not saying that we should do exactly what he does, but I don't think it is 100% hopeless.
But... He did mention that there are very few dogs that he couldn't help. Like a dog he wrote in one of his books was trained to kill people.
"It's better to be an optimist who is sometimes wrong than a pessimist who is always right" |
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Re: rescue vs. breeder
[Re: Jennifer Skeldon ]
#203500 - 07/31/2008 12:13 PM |
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It's a case by case situation. Michael is correct. With PROPER training a dog WILL overcome aggression. The problem is, that is not always available.
For all those who are fantastic trainers, and have put their blood and sweat into making a difference for an aggressive rescue, only to have to put it down in the long run, this is not a fair statement to make. Sometimes there is NOTHING that can be done, no matter how good the trainer. No matter how optimal the situation. No matter how proper the training.
When a flower doesn't bloom, you fix the environment in which it grows, not the flower. |
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Re: rescue vs. breeder
[Re: eric dziedzic ]
#203502 - 07/31/2008 12:14 PM |
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Hey Eric, I think when you get a dog from a rescue organization the dog has been screened by qualified people so you are aware of any problems the dog may come with and have made the decision to work with them, making them less of a problem or a dog that really has no issues, thats why they placed them with you.
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Re: rescue vs. breeder
[Re: michael hubert ]
#203503 - 07/31/2008 12:16 PM |
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seperating your dog isnt fixing the problem. its making it worse. you have to fix the problem when it occures. taking him away and isolating him tells him he is getting punished because of the other dogs, not his behavior, in his mind the other dogs mean ,i get islolated , i have to do somthing about these dogs. when he acts like that, correct him for his behavior, be the leader. teach him that behavior is not going to be tolerated. ...
Michael, there is no way that you had time to read the back-story on Eric's dog, but you post this "this is the fact" reply.
I'd suggest after reading a few of your posts today that you spend some time reading, here and on Leerburg.com's main site, and much less time posting for a while.
Thanks.
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Re: rescue vs. breeder
[Re: Lindsay Janes ]
#203504 - 07/31/2008 12:16 PM |
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A good example is looking at Cesar Milian.
He has been so successful rehabilitating dog fighters from the street which not so many trainers were able to do. It seems like many trainers and behaviorists are more comfortable to put dog down for aggression issues or find a home that doesn't have anything to trigger the aggression such as eating alone, isolated from other dogs,and staying away from kids/people, etc. Cesar mended ex fighters with his thirty plus pack dogs. I'm not saying that we should do exactly what he does, but I don't think it is 100% hopeless.
This is a great example. But before working with the pack , the dog is ALWAYS worked with alone until it responds and respects the leaders.
And even CM has put dogs down because there was no helping them...
When a flower doesn't bloom, you fix the environment in which it grows, not the flower. |
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Re: rescue vs. breeder
[Re: Lindsay Janes ]
#203505 - 07/31/2008 12:17 PM |
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Lindsay,
Isolating is basically managing the problem, and if an owner can hold up his end of the deal, it's a workable solution.
There are problems that are training problems, and there are problems that are management problems - a wise and experienced trainer knows the difference between the two and informs his client of the choices and likely outcomes.
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Re: rescue vs. breeder
[Re: steve strom ]
#203507 - 07/31/2008 12:21 PM |
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Hey Eric, I think when you get a dog from a rescue organization the dog has been screened by qualified people so you are aware of any problems the dog may come with and have made the decision to work with them, making them less of a problem or a dog that really has no issues, thats why they placed them with you.
*sigh I wish this were true. I really do. Ideally, with a well run organization, it hopefully is. And if it's true where you are, Steve, that is so awesome.
The states I have worked in rehab, it hasn't been. In fact, the state that I live in now employs minimum wage high school dropouts as "evaluators"
They torment the dogs with a stuffed "hand" to see if they are going to bite a person. They use a stuffed "child" to see if the dog will show aggression towards children. They grab a rescued cat from the back room and bring it into the kennels to see if the dog will chase after it.
They just euthanized over 80 puppies and young dogs last month because they did not pass their tests, and they decided to "clean house" entirely and start over.
I hope that more facilities become what you described, but until that happens, I believe we have to approach shelters and rescues the same way we do trainers: cautiously, and with the advice of someone we KNOW knows what they are talking about.
When a flower doesn't bloom, you fix the environment in which it grows, not the flower. |
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Re: rescue vs. breeder
[Re: Will Rambeau ]
#203510 - 07/31/2008 12:25 PM |
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im sorry connie oh, if you take a criminal out of society, because he commited a crime and put him in jail ,does that mean he will never commit another crime??? when he gets out.
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Re: rescue vs. breeder
[Re: Cameron Feathers ]
#203511 - 07/31/2008 12:26 PM |
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Oh no, the fake hand.. I hate that one. In limited experience, I've seen pretty good people doing breed rescue.
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