Dan wrote - so making the dog respect the pack order..." how do I do this?

A dog is a simple creature, it sad to say but by making him last. You teach him his place.

Last to go through the door, last to eat, last to move until you say so, have him sit and throw the ball then release him. You make him consider what he wants last and what you want the higher priority.

Don't let him sit/lay on the couch, don't let him sleep on your bed, don't let him tell you what to do (unless you trained it like, he wants to go out and releive himself).

I'm being simplistic here. There are others that can draw out technicail terms and training plans. This is just general thoughts.

All these things sound unimportant, but research this topic on this board and you will see doing the opposite makes the dog thinks he is Alpha and you get the bitting and growling, because you are in his world. You want to avoid this.


I think its done by a structured daily routine and OB. For example I can go out of my front door them right behind me and say stay, they stop. I pick up the mail, at the curb, 20 yrds away. Then tell them to come they wait until I tell them hear the command to come before opening the door with their paw and meeting me.

Point being made is that there is no competition to beat me out the door, or escaping out the front door. I sometime don't call them just stay until I return.

Just my 2 cent.

Originally posted by Don B. Ackerson:


Not trying make this a breed thing.

But most GSD or Rotties (and other dogs) when brought up around kids (especially your kids age) with the scence and respect for the animal are safe around working dogs. Because of the dogs sound temperment and socialization.

Sorry, but you did make it a breed thing. The stats show all over the world that the GSD is the dog that bites the most. Cannot argue this one. Shere numbers give the GSD this distinction.

Mals do not even put a blip on these scales. Non existant.

The next breed that you speek of, the Rott. The numbers also lean toward this breed being one of the highest instance of Death by Dog anywhere around the world.

Kids and working dogs do not mix. Not today, the next day or beyond.

This is a topic that really burns my butt when I see people advocating children with working dogs.

Kids are our most valuable asset in this world. Would you leave a child in a room with exposed, live elec wireing because you told the child to not touch while you were out.

Same goes for the real deal and the prey driven sport dogs. It does not take much to inflict very serious damage.

It was not all that long ago I had to write a news paper article as the result of a dog that was allowed to play with the neighborhood kids.

One of the kids was killed when the dog simply clamped on the little 10 yr girls neck.

Doing two things.

Tearing out the jugler and at the same time a total collapse of the complete neck and throat. This attack lasted several minutes while many adults tried without any success to pry this killer of this poor childs dead body.

Last, it also does not take much of a bite to cause real serious damage. My own trip to hell began with my thumb nail busting off from an accidental bite. That translated into 2 strokes and open heart surgery.

Bottom Line, working protection dogs are an Adult Activity and never believe the fairy tale that they (dogs) understand the mindset of a child.

Hell most of my own real deals have taken a punch or two at me and I am very much aware of the potential for harm. I have one who only has to hear the word no and he is already giving me the eyeball.

The innocent child does not not understand the danger.

Jerry Cudahy

Jerry, the dog that killed the little girl, what type of dog was this? If a GSD,working lines, show, or American line GSD? I think that when dealing with aggressive dogs you really have to look at the breeding behind that dog. A well bred and socialized dog should be able to interact with children. By using obed, this teaches the dog where it is in the hiearchy. A 7 year old child should be able to command a dog that is well trained. I don't advocate leaving the dog and child together unsupervised until both have show that they understand each other and depending on the child and the dog, maybe not even then. But just because this is a working dog I don't feel it needs to be separated from the family because it might be dangerous. As long as the dog is not weak nerved, aggressive or running wild, why can't it be a member of the family?

Dan... give your pup time to adjust... every dog we have ever brought home has displayed "depression" for about a week.. making me wonder if I made a bad selection even after testing the puppy. We started early with my Rott establishing his place in the family. My daughter (8) took toys, bones, food and anything else away from him at various times while he was young. We worked with him going up stairs, through doorways....all the things that everyone suggested. Now though I do see some behavior on his part where he is trying to assert dominance on our daughter trying to make her play with him and pet him on his terms, and when he wants. We are watching closely for any changes in that behavior.

As far as the working dog interacting with kids.... Yes...kids can set off the prey drive in a dog, I'm sure we have all seen a dog perk up watching a child run around yelling with arms waving about, and this can be a dangerous thing. Most maulings you read about though involve pack dogs....I think that is a different issue all together. Good breeding... good temperment testing...good socialization...good owners... usually make good, safe, dogs.

Wow, thanks for all the advice, I will definitly incorporate all of it, I just wanted to make sure to start out on the right foot.

Dan, just incorporate your pup into the family. Have all family members take turns feeding, playing, grooming, walking and the like. IMHO, the feeding is most important, food comes from the alpha. At this time you do not want to incorporate any harsh OB methods. You want to keep it motivational and happy for the pup, treats for sits, downs, going in the crate ect..ect.

Your pup is going to get very mouthy and those little teeth are going to hurt. You have to chose what direction you want to take. If you want a family companion, a verbal "No" with a scruff shake and redirection to a toy will discourage this behavior. If you want a working dog, encourage the bite to tugs and have some play.

Always supervise the interaction with your children and the pup, they can unintentionally hurt each other.

It does sound like the vaccinations did make your pup low for a bit. I would not recommend another test because the pup is going through some different stages now and may not demonstrate accurate results.

I'm sure you've made a good decision with your pup and will have a valuable addition to your family, just keep up the interaction and a positive and happy environment.

Jerry is right again but stactic don't always bear out the facts. Pit bulls are the #1 killer of humans, Rottilweler #2 the GSD is #10 which is getting better they were at one point ranked higher, when they were even more popular. Most of these problems I believe are handler onwers problems. It still doesn't erase the fact that they happened.

The incident that sound similar to the one you were mentioned happen in Canada, and the dog was a Lawerys Bull Matiffs. If this is not the same story its simular, in almost everway.

What I was saying is that Mals seem to bite even there owners by accidents and for fun sometimes, more often the others. A GSD unless there is something wrong with them or he is in the dragster line dogs are more tolerant to mistakes.

I'm not advocating leaving a child to handle a working dog unsupervised, I'm only saying that during the puppy stage having the kids work with the dog would make the dog the kids are part of his pack.

So if the an accident happened were they are by themself, even for a second. Lets say the dog gets out of the back yard. The child can verbally command him into his kennel. I've seen 10-15 yr. old kids do that with what I called a serious working dog, one was his Dads patrol dog.
I'd pitty the guy that would have tried to tackle this dog and he didn't know him. This kid saved a $xx,k dog and untold panic and possible danger to the public. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


It is true I never owned a dog that if I gave a command and he didn't like it, he would act up or growl at me. Thats a dragster and I don't want him to be part my family. Like Joey Wales, stated "A Man has to know his limitations."

If he is that hard to control. Now I agree he probably would make a great sport dog with the right handler. I'm more of the 350z or Targa porsche type guy I want fire, but I want it to handle in the curves and break on a dime (i'm still working on that). <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'll leave the Indy sport cars and dragsters to you experts.

Kim, it was the Bull Mastiff that Don alluded to. It was not a GSD. My point about bring this incident up is that everyone, adult that was involved the day she died. Assumed it was OK to allow the kids to play with this dog.

Dog did it, for sure but the dumb ass adults present including one of the owners, allowed it to happen without knowing about the danger.

Fairy Tales Kill

Jerry

Jerry,

Got to disagree with you. GSD's And Rotts are in the statistics only because there are numerically a lot more of them. Plus when a mutt (most likely culprit) has erect ears they label it a GSD. Most people taking bite statistics never even heard of a malinois.
Secondly, I've have protection dogs for over 25 years, and all of them are great around kids. What good is a protection dog if you have to lock him up 90 % of the time when your kids are home?
I agree they should always be supervised and not allowed to run loose when my childrens friends are over, but I want him around when I need him I.E Jon bene Ramsey Case. I do think sport/prey monster dogs are more likely to get an accidental bite, but the serious bites are almost always by untrained, unsupervised mixed breed dogs and it's almost always the owners fault.

Philip, I mentioned about the numbers of dogs in a targeted breed relating to the bite incidents.

Not for one moment do I believe that all bites are from purebreds. Not even close.

Yet, there are more identified breed bites than not identified when it comes to bites that make headlines.

I would love to go off in this direction but this thread is not about that so perhaps the powers will switch this somewhere else.



Jerry