Something you will learn over a period of time (hopefully), is that just because a trainer has achieved a high level, or has many years of experience, does not mean he is a good trainer.

I've met a number of trainers that have dogs that have reached higher levels. Now ask me how many of the dogs like their owners.

Also, genetics are merely an indicator. Don't ever train your dog based on genetics or based on what the sire is. The pup can be the complete opposite and need entirely different approaches to training.

I don't care if someone is the 10x world champion of every sport there is. If I dont like how they train, I'm not training with them.

Craig, in addition to listening to what the more expereinced posters here have told you, buy this dvd; I think it may help clarify some things for you...( I am a novice when it comes to dog training; the info is presented in a logical manner that is easy to understand)

http://leerburg.com/101e.htm (Building Drive, Focus and Grip)

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I don't care if someone is the 10x world champion of every sport there is. If I dont like how they train, I'm not training with them.

That should be on a T shirt Mike!

 Quote: Mike J Schoonbrood

... I don't care if someone is the 10x world champion of every sport there is. If I dont like how they train, I'm not training with them.

In fact, no matter what training I was doing, from Basic Ob on down the line, that would be my POV. Uneasiness, doubt, don't feel right -- I'd walk away.

Bad advice is bad advice, regardless of whose mouth it comes from.

Even Ed will admit he has used some crappy training methods in the past, before he "knew better".

Some folks just need to be shown another way, and some folks are dead-set on staying stuck in the old-school.

The ends do not justify the means; especially when dealing with our best friends.

I'd rather see you flank the dog, than gag it.

thanks guys, the thing is I can't just think i know it all and not take advice from more experienced people. These people have been training dogs for over 20 years and know everything about the training. The thing about us humans is we're adaptable. When I was still very new to training I thought the pinch was a cruel collar and would never have imagined using it but now will use it. The same goes with many other methods I've never heard of. The whole sticking the finger down the tongue is like any other outing method, to irritate th dog to drop the ball. The same how lots of people will pull the dog off the ground by the collar so it finally lets go. They're all just methods and I would be able to tell when they get out of hand.

Some of the corrections I see done are not pretty but then they are neccessary if the dog is to get titled and are on hard dogs. I mean like double lining the dog if it growls when reporting to the judge as this is instant dq and the problem will only get worse. Some of these corrections come from the best trainers in the world so you can trust them more. Every trainer will have methods in his arsenal that might seem nasty to me but then i'm possibly just soft and quite distrustful.

Uneasiness and doubt are the norm for newbies in this sport. This is not a sport where we treat our dogs like the average person does at home with their pets. We put pinch's and electrics on the dogs and require precision and respect from them 24/7. Some of these dogs are harder than 99% of dogs out there and need to know they can't get away with growling at their handlers and other people. Others are soft and sleeping on the bed and getting away with mischief will not make them dog fight for alpha with the handler.

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The whole sticking the finger down the tongue is like any other outing method, to irritate th dog to drop the ball.

How many behaviors in general do you find your chosen trainers inducing by irritation? This is the point of contention; how a behavior is (at the very least) INTRODUCED to an inexperienced dog.

Example of why this train of thought is both just mean (imo) and counter productive. Bernhard Flinks mentioned this in the context of retrieves: you will have lost nothing by at least trying the motivational retrieve...even if it doesn't work out. On the other hand, compulsion will always leave unwanted tell-tale behaviors to some degree (even as little as an ear-twitch, or a yawn, at some point in the routine), which will require additional work to offset for the purposes of the sport.

Secondly, the prong collar and e-collar, respectively, are not training "methods". They are means to achieve certain stimuli...hopefully for the righ reasons.

To clarify and conclude, I'm talking about one thing only...and that is why someone one choose any degree of "irritation" (punishment) to induce behavior as a default method, when there is an alternative approach which poses essentially no risk to attempt.

...even with all these hard, alpha dogs which you speak of. Though some would say these are precisely the dogs with whom you'd WANT to minimize conflict.

Craig, you are justifying these things to yourself. Believe me, I've heard everything you just wrote before, down to the "he has 20 years experience" crap. I'm not some PETA fanatic, I don't think prong collars are cruel, I didn't just hang out at one Schutzhund club and think I know it all.

I know all those little quips and sales pitches... "oh don't talk about it on forums, those people don't understand anything beyond club level training. this is a controversial training method, other people won't understand. this dog needs this, he won't be consistent any other way. all other trainers train this way, the ones that say they don't do it behind closed doors, when nobody's looking, yank yank yank, then the dog comes out and looks good again." bla bla f'in bla.

I could go on and on about all the cliche excuses i've heard for poor and lazy training, and I could sit here and write out a 10 page essay on some of the complete bullshit i've seen done to dogs in the name of training, protected by the excuses I mentioned above. At what point do you say "this isn't training, this is abuse" ?? Or is it OK as long as someone with 20 years experience is doing it?

I won't even begin on the "this dog really is that dominant/hard/handler aggressive/psychotic/uncontrollable that he NEEDS this" stuff. Very few dogs in the entire world "need" this stuff, and half the time its because someone f'd something up in the first place.

I'm curious, Craig.

You asked for and received very good advice with clear explanations from serious working dog trainers, and then said (twice), words to this effect: Well, I can't go against this guy who gave me this moronic advice because .....



So why did you ask?

I know of something sort of similar, but this is with a dog who knows the command already:

When I use the ball during obedience, here is what I do regarding out: First off, I play a little tug, I don't throw the ball, I really don't let go of the string too often. When I want my dog to out, I give him a sit command, make sure both my leash and the ball string is slack, & give the out command, of course I have already taught the out, but sometimes a young dog will test you in the beginning by not outing. I don't repeat the command, but I do have a thin little twig in my hand, (I mean a little bitty thing, like what leaves are attached to, bendable), which I would put between his teeth and press on his tongue. This results in the dog spitting out the ball, but it's not from pain, it's a foreign object that tastes nasty to them. You must be subtle, and you must be quick. It usually only has to be done a couple or a few times, it's very easy, no muss no fuss, and it works. I can't take credit for figuring it out, it's an old German trick I was taught.

I agree with those who say don't stick your finger down the dogs throat. Most dogs will just hold onto the ball harder when you try this. It's the same as telling a dog to out, but keep pulling on the string. No dog worth his salt will release when you do that, they just start fighting with you, it just sets you up for failure because the dog is stronger.