Quote: sarah morris

I taught it the way Jessica did...walking into the dog and marking for a step backward.

I tried forever to get the "back up" by walking into the dog, but I couldn't get it to transfer to heel position or anywhere else until I took my own movement out of the picture (she would only back up if I stepped into her). Once I put her in a place that she couldn't crab out of and actually got her to understand the command, it was easy to generalize it. Trainer failure, I'm sure!

 Quote: Kim Ward

I tried the walking into her method before and she would sit down. I tried to keep walking, and she got frustrated and jumped up.

If you lure with a treat held at chest level (or slightly below) the dog will not sit or jump. You can control the whole dog with it's nose! If she sits, hold the treat lower- if the nose goes down, the butt will go up. If your dog is used to marker training, she should pick it up quickly.

The only thing I have really used this for is to back up steps to create some awareness in the dog that she has a couple of legs back there, and how to use them (preparation for agility).

You can also free shape this. I was taught to shape it although with Rush I have actually used movement to help him. I used free shaping with Raine. I put her between an agility tunnel and a wall.

To free shape it you have to put the dog between 2 objects close enough together so the dog can't turn around. I simply stand in front of the dog and focus my eyes down, under and slightly behind the dog. I don't move or say anything. As soon as she offered ANYTHING I marked and delivered the reward behind the dog's front legs so she had to back up to get it. I would toss it gently, something that in itself is kind of tricky! She offered sit, down and all kinds of things and I would mark/reward any movement at all. Since she's marker savvy and has had a lot of shaping she picked it up really quick.

I admit I use luring a LOT with Rush, but with Raine I did all shaping and it really makes you & the dog better problem solvers to try shaping first. Luring is easy and fast but I don't always think the dog uses their thinking power as much by going right to the lure.

JME.

 Quote: Sarah Mandler

 Quote: Kim Ward

I tried the walking into her method before and she would sit down. I tried to keep walking, and she got frustrated and jumped up.

If you lure with a treat held at chest level (or slightly below) the dog will not sit or jump. You can control the whole dog with it's nose! If she sits, hold the treat lower- if the nose goes down, the butt will go up. If your dog is used to marker training, she should pick it up quickly.

The only thing I have really used this for is to back up steps to create some awareness in the dog that she has a couple of legs back there, and how to use them (preparation for agility).

Sarah, kind of OT for backing up but if you want to create awareness of back legs using an elevated touch pad and teaching the dog to move their hind legs around the pad really helps this. I think I have video of Rush doing this as a puppy somewhere. We do this in all the agility classes I attend also.

Thanks guys! I'll try the shaping first, (thanks Cindy I hadn't really heard of that before, although I don't know if she'll offer anything right away, since I usually try to hide the clicker and treats. Of course it's hard to hide treats from a dogs nose! ) If that doesn't work, I'll try Sarah's method. I might have someone else click for me, since I'm not a very good multi-tasker!

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I think I have video of Rush doing this as a puppy somewhere.

Is this what your looking for? The touch pad is near the middle of the video.

 Quote: kim ward

Thanks guys! I'll try the shaping first, (thanks Cindy I hadn't really heard of that before, although I don't know if she'll offer anything right away, since I usually try to hide the clicker and treats.

I'm not sure what you mean by try to hide the clicker and treats? In marker training you don't really want to be showing the dog the rewards or the clicker anyway?

The dog should offer behaviors because he/she wants to MAKE you produce the mark/reward, whether anything is visible or not. That's why we use our "time to train" marker. i.e. ready

Have you watched the Marker video yet? There is a section in there on shaping.

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I'm not sure what you mean by try to hide the clicker and treats?

I mean I keep them in my pockets. I am supposed to hide them right?

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In marker training you don't really want to be showing the dog the rewards or the clicker anyway?

You don't want want them to see the treat or anything, so then how do they know when to start offering behaviors. I'm a little confused by what you're trying to say. Thanks for your patience with my slowness!

Sandy (my dog ) doens't really know when it's "time to train." I mean, she knows she's supposed to be learning and is very trainable, but she doesn't just start offering behaviors. She's 7 months old and my first dog, so I'm learning a lot along side her. Maybe she hasn't been trained long enough (or well enough :blushwith marker training that she doesn't start offering behaviors when I give a new command. Although, now that you mention it, I guess she does try sitting or lifting her paw when I give her a new command...

Edit: If the marker training video your talking this is one, no I don't have it, but I will add it to my Christmas list!

Edited by Kim Ward (11/16/2008 03:50 PM)
Edit reason: Marker Training video link

Lots of questions arise:

(( ... now that you mention it, I guess she does try sitting or lifting her paw when I give her a new command... ))

Are you giving a new command before she has done it? I mean, say she has never learned "down." How do you teach that? Are you naming the command at the very beginning?

About "time to train." If you start using a "time to train" word (like "Ready!"), then the dog will start to jump up eagerly and run over to you in anticipation of a good time and rewards.

Yes, the rewards are out of sight. A bait bag behind your back is very helpful.

Rehearsing having neutral hands until after the marker (click or word) is also very helpful.

Yes, that's the video. You will love it. We can help you get started here, and the video will expand your training horizons as well as show you each tiny step very clearly.

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Are you giving a new command before she has done it? I mean, say she has never learned "down." How do you teach that? Are you naming the command at the very beginning?

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Sorry, that was kind of poorly worded. I mean like when I'm trying to teach a new command. I teach a command usually by luring for 5-15 times depending on how difficult the exercise is and then add the command word. I was trying to make the point that sometimes she does offer behaviors.

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Yes, the rewards are out of sight. A bait bag behind your back is very helpful.

I'm asking for a bait bag for Christmas, too, and I'm pretty sure I'll get it.

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Yes, that's the video. You will love it. We can help you get started here, and the video will expand your training horizons as well as show you each tiny step very clearly.

I'm reading the article that's on the same page as the DVD. I'll have to satisy myself with that 'till Christmas. (Or until I have enough money since my list is getting pretty packed with dog stuff! )

And by the way, I did successfully teach it to her. It was actually easier than I thought!