When she is down, keep placing bits of food between her front feet. That will make her keep focused on the ground. It will also keep her from following your hand back up. This is in Ed's obd tape. The clicker does work, but is nothing more than the latest fad/spin on reinforcing, IMHO, but if it works, go for it. I also think training a hand signal before the verbal command can be a big mistake with a lot of dogs. Dogs are very intune to body language, movement, etc. For example. One of my daughters is an interpritor for the hearing impaired. She taught her dog to read "sign" first, then voice commands. The dog is great if she has her attention, but is a hard headed little s#!+ if she doesn't. Yes, it's also a training problem, but, again INMHO, dogs read body language easier than vocal commands.

Can be hard to explain methods via post but I'd agree with Bob about the body language. Dogs pick up on it much quicker than the verbal.

So again, these are not things that I use in daily training sessions. They are teaching tools that I use to teach, not train, a new concept to the dog. I believe training reinforces the act that the dog has already learned and understands. I was just exlpaining how I introduce the pup to the down. There's a learning phase and a training phase. I found that this works well for the learning phase. So fade, fade, fade... hand movements, treats, clicks, whatever you use to teach the principle and begin to make a quick association with the verbal. Your only wanting to see that the pup has begun to understand the movement, at that point is when you begin to use less and less suggestion to get him into that position.

I've not had any problems with the transition. Both of my dogs that I taught by this method have great recalls, sits, downs, etc... all on verbal cue. But I didn't make a habit of baiting or clicking them. I just used it as a primary motivator initially in order to avoid having to physically manipulate them into the position.

BTW: Clickers can be useful for somethings and not for others. IMO they work well for OB. I wouldn't however try to apply them to every aspect of training.

They make a clear marker that defines acceptable behavior. You can use your voice too.

Like any method of training you just have to be consistent and well timed. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The clicker is something that I don't trully understand so I won't try to use this new training tool. We are so backward here using a, clicker training working dogs, is like finding out the hot sauce came from New York City!


Right now I have ideas that are working, and I don't want to overload myself, with new things I don't understand, yet.

I'm thinking by the end of the week she will be downing well for food. But she won't do a down on command, I bet. I'll still have work to do. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Don, I trained the down with food but no longer use food to enforce it. My feeling with your puppy is you can do all the hand motions to the floor you want with food, but my guess is the dog truly doesn't understand the "verbal" command with the action. I proofed my dog one day as a puppy by giving the down command and he literally tried everything in the world to please me to get a treat. Guess what, when all else failed he finally downed and boom instant reward with the food. I did nothing more then wait for him to show me the behavior I wanted and he has downed on command ever since. This took several minutes and the hard thing is to be patient. In the long run though, I like it better then jerking him to the floor with his leash.

John,
YOu said exactly what I tried to explain in my post regarding the dog doing the behavior first and rewarding instantly. It doesn't matter what you use to mark the behavior as long as the reward is good. I also bet John that you then added a verbal or signal after the dog learned what you wanted? It's so hard to put in writing this concept but your dog demonstrated this very well for us,Thanks!!!

I'm trying to get this motivational training method down, I can see that it funnier for the dog, but it takes more time for the trainer.

The old outdated/method is way faster, if you got a puppy/dog that it won't break. I think it took maybe, a week for the puppy to have the command down to were no lease or just the foot being stomped on the ground gave you a quick down.

Even today from across the street approximately 25-30 yrds away the stomp gives me an immeadiate down with strong Male GSD. I usually will use a hand signal but if their moving too slow, here comes the foot movement and a quick down.

I get a turn away half circle down out of the Female Rottiex, (2.5 yrs old and she still remembers this sad lesson and still holds a grudge).

I don't want that to happen with this new puppy, so I'm using food, hearing clickers, and trying slowly to motivate her to a happy down. We're both learning slowly and patiencely. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Don,
I think we all can learn things for each other. Glad to hear you are using a more positive approach to commands when it comes to obedience. I have been training dogs for many years and I hate to say but my chosen method use to be the "pop'n jerk" but I have in the last 6-8 years changed methods for some obedience work. But I don't think one thing works for everything though as another member stated. I owned a GSD (now deceased) that obeyed commands more out of "I better do it or else get a correction attitude". The newest member of my family a 10mo old working line GSD that has been my biggest challenge yet happily and eagerly downs, sits, recalls etc. and all off lead on either verbal or hand signal lightning fast. He is a holy terror and corrections with him are not out of the question at times but the positive approach to the obedience aspect has been remarkable. So good luck to you and be patient because it WILL pay off.

So using this food in the hand to the ground method after a sit in order to convince a down and treat- what if the puppy won't lie down but just stands up and moves forward and paws at and nuzzles my hand? What am I doing wrong- or do I just use patience until he does?

Hi Suka,

Help him out a little bit......give the "down command" with a closed fist with the treat in it and kind of push him into the down and release the food.......and after he's down, and if he's staying down then keep dropping pieces of food between his legs while saying "Good Down". If he gets up then say "No" and then the treats stop coming. Once the pup understands, he will down very quickly on command.