John DeKruyff wrote 01/08/2009 12:34 PM Re: Charging The Mark With A Toy Reward...... [Re: Matthew Grubb ] #223000 - 01/08/2009 12:34 PM
John DeKruyff Webboard User Reg: 08-14-2001 Posts: 238 Loc: California Offline	It sounds like you might want to start from the beginning and charge the mark with a treat he really likes, so he will understand what the marker "yes" means.
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Sheila Buckley wrote 01/08/2009 07:58 PM Re: Charging The Mark With A Toy Reward...... [Re: Matthew Grubb ] #223113 - 01/08/2009 07:58 PM
Sheila Buckley Webboard User Reg: 07-14-2007 Posts: 1243 Loc: Offline	Quote: matthew grubb The only issue I’m having now if that the true understanding of “yes” as a marker still hasn’t sunk in. For example…. We were playing “the platz game” with a tug the other day… working him on the tug toy…. “Platz…. (all 4 elbows down)… Yes” then the game restarts. At one point I threw the tug about 10 feet away while he was in his down… “good, good…..yes” He got…went about 3 feet, laid back down, and wouldn’t move. Matthew, If you don't think your marker is charged enough; no problem in going back and reinforcing it some more. As far as the reward being food, a ball, a tug toy etc...the concept is the same you hear the marker you get a reward. Food is quick so you tend to get more behavior practice in but in my experience other rewards work as well and are sometimes more motivating to the dog. The important thing is make sure there is no doubt in your dog's mind that his marker means he got it right and a reward is on its way. I think I might understand your dog's confusion about chasing the tug. Possibly the sequence of the Marker and Reward. The way I am reading it is you presented the reward before the marker ( you threw the tug; followed by the marker "YES" and I think he was unsure) Try the same exercise but say "YES" and then throw the tug. See if there is any improvement. It sounds like you are doing great. Any of your fellow LEOs following your lead yet?
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Matthew Grubb wrote 01/09/2009 12:30 AM Re: Charging The Mark With A Toy Reward...... [Re: Sheila Buckley ] #223128 - 01/09/2009 12:30 AM
Matthew Grubb Webboard User Reg: 09-27-2002 Posts: 637 Loc: Pittsburgh, Pa. Offline	Sheila… The “Yes” followed by the throwing of the tug ended in a mad dash for the tug. The connection between “Yes” and the reward just isn’t there yet… I’m in no hurry. There are some handlers who are using more motivational techniques but the number is very small….unfortunately more “Kohlerish” methods are still the norm in my area. The scene in Ed’s Marker DVD with Rush working the jumps was the point where I see the biggest benefit to marker training. The dog’s body language was so telling… he’s told “No” and here comes Cindy to put him back and start the exercise again. His ears are up.. his body language is still confident and “happy”. 99% of the PSD’s in the area (mine included) would have had their ears plastered down and would have been looking away in avoidance because they know what’s coming…. What was learned?? In the DVD.. what was being asked was being learned. Our dogs learn to be afraid of us. http://www.NAPWDA.com
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Bob Scott wrote 01/09/2009 12:51 AM Re: Charging The Mark With A Toy Reward...... [Re: Matthew Grubb ] #223130 - 01/09/2009 12:51 AM
Bob Scott Moderator Reg: 06-14-2002 Posts: 7417 Loc: St. Louis Mo Offline	Matthew, are you tossing the tug for a reason? Just curious. For me, I prefer the reward be a "game" of tug with me. Once the dog is rewarded with the tossed tug, your value as part of the reward goes down. I like to be a part of the reward. Even so, once you mark and your dog "makes a mad dash" after the tug you've still accomplished your goal. You correctly marked and rewarded what you want. Istill use the "okay" as a release but I have no problem with my dog using the marker as a release also. He's done the behaviour as I asked. old dogs LOVE to learn new tricks
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Matthew Grubb wrote 01/09/2009 02:36 AM Re: Charging The Mark With A Toy Reward...... [Re: Bob Scott ] #223133 - 01/09/2009 02:36 AM
Matthew Grubb Webboard User Reg: 09-27-2002 Posts: 637 Loc: Pittsburgh, Pa. Offline	Quote: bob scott Matthew, are you tossing the tug for a reason? Just curious. Just did it once to change things up...needed a 15 second break from "playing" . Usually its all about "together tug time". By the way Bob... It's all your fault I'm getting into this PP stuff! http://www.NAPWDA.com
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Cindy Easton Rhodes wrote 01/09/2009 09:48 AM Re: Charging The Mark With A Toy Reward...... [Re: Matthew Grubb ] #223145 - 01/09/2009 09:48 AM
Cindy Easton Rhodes Moderator Reg: 07-14-2001 Posts: 2069 Loc: Wisconsin Offline	Quote: Matthew Grubb The scene in Ed’s Marker DVD with Rush working the jumps was the point where I see the biggest benefit to marker training. The dog’s body language was so telling… he’s told “No” and here comes Cindy to put him back and start the exercise again. His ears are up.. his body language is still confident and “happy”. 99% of the PSD’s in the area (mine included) would have had their ears plastered down and would have been looking away in avoidance because they know what’s coming…. What was learned?? In the DVD.. what was being asked was being learned. Our dogs learn to be afraid of us. I'm glad you posted about that section of the video(the broad jump). I didn't see the finished segment until after the video had been finished and was ready for release. My timing on the NO was really late. Had I seen that before it went to press, I would have made sure Ed added a graphic or something to let new trainers know that I was way off with my negative mark. The angle I was at when Rush was approaching made it very hard to see his mistake until he'd already made it. I've since moved where I stand so it makes my markers more clear to him. With all that said, even with bad timing on the information to my dog, he still isn't really being affected in a way that hurts our relationship or his willingness to try. That's another cool thing about markers. You may slow down your dog's learning a bit if you don't have perfect timing, but there's no long term damage done. Think about what happens when you give corrections, ESPECIALLY if your timing is off. Cindy cindyr@leerburg.com
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Bob Scott wrote 01/09/2009 10:33 AM Re: Charging The Mark With A Toy Reward...... [Re: Matthew Grubb ] #223150 - 01/09/2009 10:33 AM
Bob Scott Moderator Reg: 06-14-2002 Posts: 7417 Loc: St. Louis Mo Offline	Oh sure, blame me! Now I'm gonna have to go into hiding when you get run out of K9 because you made a "real" dog work with a happy face. Ya know, he's just not gonna be scary lookin now. Ditto on Cindy about the timing. The worst that happens with marker training is the dog gets an extra treat. How could we be so cruel!!! old dogs LOVE to learn new tricks
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Sharon Empson wrote 01/09/2009 12:59 PM Re: Charging The Mark With A Toy Reward...... [Re: Matthew Grubb ] #223179 - 01/09/2009 12:59 PM
Sharon Empson Webboard User Reg: 08-27-2007 Posts: 1197 Loc: Offline	Matthew; I have found the same thing. The only time I toss the tug is when we are done with our session, and we are done playing tug with it. Once it is tossed, Cody brings it back, he finds it much more fun to play tug with me. I have experienced the result of not throwing it as a reward and the advise you have been given has proved correct in my case, I get much better response when I do not throw it, but play tug instead. Even my dog Bindi who does not like to play with toys, gets excited if we play tug together, she has no interest in playing retreive the toy. (she wasn't played with as a little pup, spent most of her early life in a shelter) Sharon Empson
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Sheila Buckley wrote 01/09/2009 09:26 PM Re: Charging The Mark With A Toy Reward...... [Re: Matthew Grubb ] #223254 - 01/09/2009 09:26 PM
Sheila Buckley Webboard User Reg: 07-14-2007 Posts: 1243 Loc: Offline	Quote: Matthew Grubb Sheila… The “Yes” followed by the throwing of the tug ended in a mad dash for the tug. The connection between “Yes” and the reward just isn’t there yet… I’m in no hurry. That sounds perfect to me but if you are in doubt that he gets it; spend more time charging the marker. It won't hurt.....which as you have already noticed is the best part of this training. You're right about Bob; he is a bad influence. The next dog I have, my goal is to use no physical corrections ever.....where do you think that idea came from? Thats almost as bad as a happy PSD.
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Michael Reese wrote 01/10/2009 09:24 PM Re: Charging The Mark With A Toy Reward...... [Re: Sheila Buckley ] #223370 - 01/10/2009 09:24 PM
Michael Reese Webboard User Reg: 03-07-2006 Posts: 318 Loc: Sacramento, Ca. Offline	Matthew, In regards to throwing the tug. With some dogs this works fine and with others it doesn't. There is also the aquisition phase and the vanquishing phase of prey drive. It all depends on where your dog really gets his kicks that determines if it works well or not.
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