Quote: Michelle Berdusco

I totally see keeping a working dog that is competeing, such as Cindy with Rush, under constant control. I just think if it can be achieved that it would be more enjoyable to live as a pack with middle of the road dogs.

Out of curiosity.....why do you think that? I only have one dog and as a puppy thru young adulthood he had a strong desire to play with other dogs but as he aged his interest in them declined and our bond grew stronger. He gets along well with any dog but his desire is to be with me; I don't think there is any contest between me or another dog. So as far as living as a pack with other dogs.....I don't see that it would be more enjoyable not for him anyway.

Keeping them seperate makes sense to me because it would be too easy to let them meet each others needs for companionship and exercise and where does that leave me? Not a very complicated reason but I'm simple and I can very easily take the easy way out.

I definately see letting the dogs mingle is not the easy way and many pitfalls could and do arise.

Animals are pack animals and thus it is obviously more natural to keep them together.

The bottom line is if you do not have the dogs out together EVER then how is that a pack? Your relationship and leadership is with each dog individually nothing collectively.

I understand why people seperate just not how they think they then have a pack. Much like the dogs kenneled together at a shelter are not a pack even though they live in proximity and might have the same handler.

 Quote: Michelle Berdusco

... The bottom line is if you do not have the dogs out together EVER then how is that a pack? .... I understand why people seperate just not how they think they then have a pack.

Not having them together on their own is very different from not having them together EVER.

this is just me here....

i have multiple dogs. they are either crated and rotated, or they are not. it depends on a lot of things, and each day may be different.

now, there are times when we are acting more like a pack. when we hike, go for walks and i take everyone, when i have everyone loose at once, then i am dealing with my pack.

other times, i might have 2 dogs that don't see each other for 3 days.


so, i have a lot of dogs(i guess). i don't have a pack, but when more than 2 dogs are out at the same time, we behave more like a pack, with things like walks and hikes being more pack like than just hanging out at the house.

Total agreement to Connie and Mallory.

 Quote: Michelle Berdusco

I definately see letting the dogs mingle is not the easy way and many pitfalls could and do arise.

I'm sorry I don't think I explained myself well. I am not saying I think it is easy to let dogs mingle. I am saying if I had multiple dogs and they got along well; on those crazy busy days it would be very tempting to let them fulfill one anothers needs for play and comapanionship thus increasing the bond between them but not doing much for my bond with them. In other words I could be lazy (aka take the easy way out)

You got me thinking.......it is probably good I only have one dog. I don't think I'd be very good at having a pack because I'd be more concerned with the individual relationships I had with each dog than looking at them as a pack. Now I am confused Am I missing something when it comes to pack structure and what makes a pack?

I too agree with Connie and Mallory.

I've been following this thread guys and I really find it interesting that so many of you have different views about a pack and how it should be but they all seem to have a good point. I mean, really, meeting halfway, this all tells me that isolation of a pack member from certain individuals in a pack seems to be the way to go to obtain harmony. But can anyone answer me this. Is being a pack leader (or the presence of a pack leader) enough to stop agression among his members? Can anyone here honestly tell me that if you are present, no fight could ever break inside the pack? You see isn't it that in the wild, dogs would (sometimes) compete with each over ranking and that ranking often shifts up and down as the animal ages? And isn't it that if you are not present the next dominant dog governs the pack? I dont' think there really is a clear line to draw here. I think that all we've learn so far about dog packs are just instruments for us to be vigilant and aware but not to generalize all situations in one common rule. I might be wrong at this. So i'll just dodge the rotten tomatoes thrown at me. Yiks!

i don't think the mere presence PREVENTS all fights, but it does STOP all fights.

 Quote: Erick Caramat

But can anyone answer me this. Is being a pack leader (or the presence of a pack leader) enough to stop agression among his members? Can anyone here honestly tell me that if you are present, no fight could ever break inside the pack?

Certainly not at my house! On the contrary; more fights seem to occur when I'm present, as I have several very dominant males who are competing for #2. They are clear where they stand if I'm not there. For example, I can let them in the yard together, and have nothing more than posturing, but if I step outside to intervene, an all-out war will break out if my timing isn't 100% perfect.

 Quote:

And isn't it that if you are not present the next dominant dog governs the pack?

Yep. See above.

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I dont' think there really is a clear line to draw here. I think that all we've learn so far about dog packs are just instruments for us to be vigilant and aware but not to generalize all situations in one common rule.

I agree. Generalizing does not work. There are some dogs who wouldn't dare fight w/me present, and some who wouldn't UNLESS I was there. It seems to be the more dominant ones who get into it when I'm nearby and the more passive ones who get into it when I'm not, but this is just what I've noticed at my house.

I don't think my house is a good one to judge though b/c the amount and temperament of dogs at my house is not common, nor is the way I manage them. They are mostly separated, and I tend to prefer one type of dog, so I end up w/several very dominant males, whereas most households may have one like that, and others who are happier being lower ranking or submissive.

 Quote: Erick Caramat

... But can anyone answer me this. Is being a pack leader (or the presence of a pack leader) enough to stop agression among his members?

Yes.

But if it isn't, then again, I say to separate even when the owner is present.