 Re: Yes and Okay
[Re: Jennifer Skeldon ]
#231217 - 03/12/2009 04:10 PM |
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Re: Yes and Okay
[Re: Barbara Schuler ]
#231220 - 03/12/2009 04:37 PM |
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Keep in mind that the MARKER (either a clicker or what ever word you use) is used to show/tell the dog the moment he performs the correct behavior and lets him know a treat is coming. So whether your dog has moved out of the position he was in when MARKED is not important; what is important is that you do your best to accurately MARK at the correct time. That is the "photo" that remains in your dog's mind... not the moment he gets the treat, but the moment which was marked.
Part of the beauty of this system is that it is designed to allow you to provide the reward a moment or two AFTER the behavior, but your dog knows which behavior it was you are happy with. One example might be if you are teaching your dog to jump over a hurdle and you want him to tuck his legs up under him in a certain fashion. (I'm must making this up to give you a "visual"....) You send him over the hurdle and he does it perfectly; you MARK when his legs are how you want them but you obviously can't give a reward at that second. If you have "charged the mark" correctly prior to beginning the training, he knows the sound means YES! TREAT and he knows as soon as he gets to you he will be rewarded for what he was doing the minute he heard the mark. That is an extreme example, but I hope it gives you the idea.
Cindy doesn't show the treat prior to the exercise. The treat is in her pocket or in a pouch until the MARK then a slight pause, then the treat. And when training a new behavior, she doesn't introduce a command or word until after the behavior itself has been learned by the marking/treating.
What I have seen is that when I follow the steps, Falcon does THINK more about what we are doing... he gets very involved in the process instead of just waiting for me to "show" him what I want. The hard part for me is to NOT help him when I see he is not sure yet - but then once he gets it the light bulb goes off and he gets all pepped up like "oh yeah, I'm bad..." LOL!
Brilliant! That was a great example. Thank you, very much. 
That's basically what I'm doing with heel. We started with just walking politely on the leash, moved to having him sit before we crossed streets, and then moved to an actual heel for two steps at a time with the marker when he sits. I don't ever tell him him heel on our walks, but he's starting to figure it out for himself and I never have to tell him to sit anymore when I stop.
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Re: Yes and Okay
[Re: Scott Garrett ]
#231222 - 03/12/2009 04:50 PM |
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I show the treat, give the command, say "yes!", give the treat, and then say "okay" as the release...I use "take a break" with the older dog.
Barbara already mentioned this, but it deserves mentioning again.
Do not show the treat first! If you're showing the treat first, it is becoming a bribe, and you are risking your dog turning into one who will only listen if it knows you have food.
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Re: Yes and Okay
[Re: Tabatha Farnel ]
#231223 - 03/12/2009 05:17 PM |
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This has actually been a good thread b/c while I'm marking correctly, I've never formally ended any training session. And I went back and started re-reading the marker training article. Hmmmm....
The thing I like about marker training - well, dog training in general - is that there's always something that I can work on or improve, or evolve. Part of it's the process of working with whichever dog I'm working with, but also just in general.
Teagan!
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Re: Yes and Okay
[Re: Jennifer Mullen ]
#231225 - 03/12/2009 05:56 PM |
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This has actually been a good thread b/c while I'm marking correctly, I've never formally ended any training session. And I went back and started re-reading the marker training article. Hmmmm....
The thing I like about marker training - well, dog training in general - is that there's always something that I can work on or improve, or evolve. Part of it's the process of working with whichever dog I'm working with, but also just in general.
Jennifer - I couldn't agree more! Every time I reread an article or watch the DVD again, I learn something new. Which I'm sure is the reason they normally include "you may need to watch this several times..." in the verbiage.  Not only do I learn something new, but I get inspired reading the posts as well and getting ideas from other folks muddling through the same things I am working on. :-)
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Re: Yes and Okay
[Re: Jennifer Mullen ]
#231227 - 03/12/2009 06:05 PM |
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Barb, thanks. Just to clarify: If I am training a wait use 'yes' and mark the behavior, but if I am feeding/playing and he can *see* the reward use a less formal 'okay' for a release. This makes sense. I am bribing him with a wait for the food/ball.
Hehe, I have another question out of this. If I am asking him to do something casually do I say good, give a few pats or mark. EX: If I am on a walk and stop to talk with a neighbor and ask him to sit nicely while I chat. When he is done, does he get a mark or just a happy mom and a pat?
I do not randomly yell out yes or click in the house. I just notice that when I'm training another dog it only takes one mark for Kota to come racing through looking for a reward. I started another thread wondering about that...same marker different dog.
And I agree 100% Jen, I can ALWAYS learn something new with dog training. And it is usually something intuitive that makes me go 'duh' of course!
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Re: Yes and Okay
[Re: Jennifer Skeldon ]
#231228 - 03/12/2009 06:12 PM |
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I do not randomly yell out yes or click in the house. I just notice that when I'm training another dog it only takes one mark for Kota to come racing through looking for a reward.
I have to admit, I'm kind of disappointed! I had the best mental image of you randomly yelling 'YES!' to Kota
In the informal setting you mention, I try to mark behaviour, though I'm definitely not as on the ball with it. I don't make a big deal out of it, usually just a quiet and calm 'yes' and then an 'okay' if we're leaving or whatever. Don't know if that's right or not, to be honest. My consistency definitely isn't there in those situations.
Teagan!
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Re: Yes and Okay
[Re: Jennifer Mullen ]
#231234 - 03/12/2009 08:21 PM |
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I also had entertaining visions of what the dog may have been doing when he heard mom saying "YES" from another room... With Falcon at seven months of age, it could certainly be almost anything - which is why right now, he is never out of my sight... Goodness knows the upholstered furniture would have stories to tell if he was given a few moments on his own... 
My understanding is that if you have trained that the YES is the marker, or if you are using a clicker for the marker, or whatever YOU use for the YES - then ANY TIME you say/do that mark - you need to be able to reward it with a treat. So if you are casually walking and ask him to wait, and he does as asked, and you release him with a YES! - you need to reward him with a treat.
Have I said Yes! accidentally when I didn't' have a treat? Of course!! If we are out playing and he does something so freakin' cute or does something just right, it (the YES) can slip out without even thinking about it - but I make sure to have a party for him anyway and do my best to reward the YES.
Ideally, we are only using the marker and/or YES when we are actually training that behavior or reinforcing that behavior. If you are out on a walk and ask him to do a behavior he already knows, then an "atta boy" is perfect. He will know you are pleased but he won't be looking at you with that "WHERE IS MY TREAT???" look... (I HATE that look when I don't have a goodie in my pocket!)
Which brings me to ask... am I the only person digging dried old treats out of my jean's pockets AFTER taking clothes out of the dryer??? WHY can't I remember to check pockets before washing instead of after drying??? And yes, I do have a great Leerburg fanny pack type of thing I use when formally working with Falcon, but there is always that last minute running out the door when I grab something and shove it in my pocket "just in case".... 
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Re: Yes and Okay
[Re: Barbara Schuler ]
#231238 - 03/12/2009 08:40 PM |
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Oh yeah....you don't want to know what happened when Neb was Falcon's age and I thought 'oh, I can trust him alone with the easy chair while I pop outside'....no, I couldn't.
I think with treats it depends on the behaviour the dog gives and where you are in terms of working on or with that behaviour. I expect all of my dogs to sit (or 'assis'....poor Neb is always accused of not knowing basic stuff by people who should know what language he's been trained in....sheesh) and they are all at the point where they don't need to be rewarded each and every time they do so (I do still reward them, but not everytime they all know the command well), so in a situation where we met a neighbour and they sat quietly and nicely, I would still try to mark the behaviour, but wouldn't have a problem not giving them treats.
If we met a neighbour and were walking with them and Neb was walking nicely/giving me heeling behaviour (which he was good at, and then I noticed he barked at a couple of people around 10 months (a few weeks ago), and started letting full exploration on walks again since I was concerned it could be a fear stage - he's back to his normal happy not-bothered-by-people self, but he got out of the habit of walking at my side), I would want to mark and reward it. So for me anyways, it would depend.
Teagan!
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Re: Yes and Okay
[Re: Tabatha Farnel ]
#231244 - 03/12/2009 09:43 PM |
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I show the treat, give the command, say "yes!", give the treat, and then say "okay" as the release...I use "take a break" with the older dog.
Barbara already mentioned this, but it deserves mentioning again.
Do not show the treat first! If you're showing the treat first, it is becoming a bribe, and you are risking your dog turning into one who will only listen if it knows you have food.
I agree with the Jennifers, this is a great topic. And I've already learned a tremendous amount. I don't even want to count the number of hours I've spent reading in the last week.
Would holding the treat in my closed hand be considered showing it to him? For instance, if I put my hand on the ground and say "down"? Whenever I toss/drop a treat down it always bounces away from or under the dog.
Duke comes instantly and exuberantly (often leaping into me at the last second), plops right down for a sit, and is starting to drop for his down. I did all of that a few times each just a few minutes ago, off-leash in the living room, just using praise as the reward. I use praise after he sits at the open door and I say "come on", after he potties, and after he goes into his crate. I'll also have him sit and down in his crate when I feel like petting him, which I do at least once a day at different times. I definitely don't want to get into a situation of bribery for the continued training when he's doing so well at this stage. Not to mention how my old man is responding to the marker training. Our bond hasn't been this close in many years. I'm planning on getting some video of both of them next month after all three of us get a little more work under our belts.
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