I don't have any of the experience with this issue as you guys, but wonder is this an appropriate situation for the dog to wear a muzzle when on her walks? (combined with the working on the situation - this would be just to avoid vet bills...)

 Quote: marisa broughton

Yesterday, I met with a friend and we were going to walk our dogs (on leash). My dog had never met his dog before and so we did a controlled meet where I let my dog sniff his dog's butt and vice versa. All was okay and calm and then my friend's dog calmly walked over to my dog (my friend was locking his car, I was standing near by with my dog) and she latched on to his dog's nose and it cost me $170 in vet bills.

Ah, that is a bit (no pun intended) of a problem isn't it? I do not have any aggression experience so other than to suggest to train a behavior like sit behind you when a dog approaches that closely, I'm not sure how to improve on it. I do have a few questions though. Was she on leash when it happened? What about your friend's dog?

I think most of what you have written is positive. She's good up to 1-2 feet away. She is fine with a controlled meeting. It sounds like this is the 1st time she has actually bitten another dog? And it was one bite....not an escalating or unprovoked attack? I say "not" unprovoked because she latched onto his nose which means he entered her space with his head up which I am going to assume he was making eye contact and basically in the dog world that is a challenge. I'm not making excuses for her behavior but I think prevention is going to be a huge part of the cure and it is important to read the cues of not only your girl but that of any other dogs. Goodluck. I'm sure you will get lots of ideas to improve on the situation.

Hi Mike (and everyone else),

Thanks for your answer. Let me back up a bit here. I did socialize her as a puppy. She played with a variety of other dogs, went to puppy class etc. She was fine until she reached maturity.

I have been trying to read her since all this started and as much as I pay attention to what she's doing ... I pretty much suck at catching the subtle clues. I catch some but I miss a lot and I'm not sure I do the right thing at the right time. I don't think I do because I still have the problem behavior.

The idea of walking with the friend & his dog was to work at re-socializing her in an controlled environment. My idea of this was his dog on a leash (healing beside him) and my dog on a leash healing beside me. This was to get my dog use to being around another dog but not interacting with it yet. I was hoping to gradually decrease the distance between the two dogs. I think it was a sound idea and I think a workable one. It didn't work out the way I planned (some of it my fault and some my friend's). Hindsight says it would have been better if I had a muzzle on her. Doh!

Anyway, I have an appointment with a dog behaviorist that specializes in aggression and dogs. He has a similar background as Ed (previous work with police dogs, experience with aggressive dogs etc.) or so it would seem. The resolution to this problem is obviously something that is beyond my knowledge and experience since all the things I've tried have produced results but not fixed the problem. Maybe it can't be fixed. I don't know.

I have purchased and watched "Dealing with Dominant & Aggressive Dogs, Establishing pack structure & Basic dog obedience." I've also read though a lot of the ebooks as well as all the books I could find on dog behavior. Having said that - I may be well read on the subject but I am no expert on the subject, nor do I have any experience. It's like reading the chapters for the class but needing the teacher to explain the information, put it in context, have it make sense.

In addition, I have not come across enough information on this specific problem and I would like to understand it more deeply. I'd really appreciate some insight into this problem and what trainers are doing to resolve it. It would be nice for me to have a bit of a clue as to what this behaviorist/trainer may look for in my dog during the assessment and what goals he may set. This information, I think, would also help me assess what he suggests and whether he is someone I want to continue to work with.

I look forward to your replies.

Cheers,

M.

I PM'd my reply because it would have been "too long" to post;

 Quote:

Yesterday, I met with a friend and we were going to walk our dogs (on leash). My dog had never met his dog before and so we did a controlled meet where I let my dog sniff his dog's butt and vice versa. All was okay and calm and then my friend's dog calmly walked over to my dog (my friend was locking his car, I was standing near by with my dog) and she latched on to his dog's nose and it cost me $170 in vet bills.

Well thats your problem right there. There is no need for dogs to be sniffing each others butts and acknowledging each other. Thats step one to dogs deciding rank.

Work on control and learn to read your dog. There is ALWAYS a warning. Its never "sudden." It's just that people miss the warning signs when they are subtle or non-vocal, but you can see it clearly in the dogs body language.

Walking your dog on lead with another on-lead dog within 2ft is a very easy task to accomplish, if both owners teach the dogs to ignore each other and be non reactive. Letting dogs interact is where problems start.

Hi Sheila

 Quote: sheila buckley

Ah, that is a bit (no pun intended) of a problem isn't it? I do not have any aggression experience so other than to suggest to train a behavior like sit behind you when a dog approaches that closely, I'm not sure how to improve on it. I do have a few questions though. Was she on leash when it happened? What about your friend's dog?

My dog was on a leash. I can't remember if his was or not. If it was, the leash was slack and he was turned away from the dog to lock his car. I didn't anticipate his dog walking up to her. Oops!

Normally when we go on walks, when another dog approaches, I usually move Kachina (my dog) off to the side, make her sit and look at me until the other dog has passed. Then I praise her for being good.

I do this as a precaution because although she would walk past the dog without trying to do something, the other dogs sometimes want to approach her and many of the owners have their dogs on those extendable leashes and are not under full control.

I think she's making faces at the other dogs (eye contact etc)because I've noticed quite a few dogs, mostly the little ones, lunge at her. My deduction is that she issues a challenge and they accept. She can't make faces at them when I have her sitting and looking at me ... she does try though but the sideways look doesn't have the same impact as the "Bring it on!" look. :-)

 Quote:

I think most of what you have written is positive. She's good up to 1-2 feet away. She is fine with a controlled meeting. It sounds like this is the 1st time she has actually bitten another dog? And it was one bite....not an escalating or unprovoked attack?

It was one bite, nothing more. It's the first time she's actually bitten another dog but I'm thinking that if she had the opportunity to bite another dog before - she may have. In the past, when she use to go off leash, she would pin the dog and slobber on it.

 Quote:

I say "not" unprovoked because she latched onto his nose which means he entered her space with his head up which I am going to assume he was making eye contact and basically in the dog world that is a challenge.

You bring up a really good point here. She's by no means a vicious dog so there was a reason (in her mind) for what she did.

 Quote:

I'm not making excuses for her behavior but I think prevention is going to be a huge part of the cure and it is important to read the cues of not only your girl but that of any other dogs. Goodluck. I'm sure you will get lots of ideas to improve on the situation.

I'm not making excuses for her either, but like you, I do like to understand the reason behind the behavior. The cues would be much easier to read if I was facing my dog because then I would see her eyes dialate, I would see the lip lift, I would see the stare. From my position I can see that she is interested in the approaching dog and from that I can only assume what she is doing. Experience is a great teacher and so given what she has done, she won't be getting an opportunity (without a muzzle on) for a repeat performance.

Thanks for your reply.

M.

 Quote: barbara schuler

I don't have any of the experience with this issue as you guys, but wonder is this an appropriate situation for the dog to wear a muzzle when on her walks? (combined with the working on the situation - this would be just to avoid vet bills...)

She now wears a muzzle when we cut through the "off leash" area. It's not a dog park but it is an off leash area and although people are not suppose to be off-leash on the path, they still do. So for this place, I think a muzzle is in order. The other places I go are strictly on-leash and I can easily avoid any up-close-and-personal encounters.

Good suggestion though. Thanks.

 Quote:

=Mike J Schoonbrood
Well thats your problem right there. There is no need for dogs to be sniffing each others butts and acknowledging each other. Thats step one to dogs deciding rank.

You may have a point there. Given this, what I don't understand is: What do you do when you want to introduce two dogs to each other? How do you get them acquanted with each other?

 Quote:

Work on control and learn to read your dog. There is ALWAYS a warning. Its never "sudden." It's just that people miss the warning signs when they are subtle or non-vocal, but you can see it clearly in the dogs body language.

I know what you mean. I agree that she is giving signals and I agree that I do miss them many times. I certainly didn't see them this time.

 Quote:

Walking your dog on lead with another on-lead dog within 2ft is a very easy task to accomplish, if both owners teach the dogs to ignore each other and be non reactive. Letting dogs interact is where problems start.

While this is true, dogs are social creatures and forming packs is a natural thing for them, so is establishing rank. How does Cesar do it? How does Cesar take dogs like Kachina and rehabilitate them so that they are no longer dog aggressive. He does it. He has success with it. So we know it's possible ...

M.

Most of us don't introduce our dogs to other dogs.

Why?

Our dogs don't need canine friends.

Keep in mind, re: Cesar, that all his dogs live outside in a huge pen. They aren't house dogs, they aren't trained, they are dogs that simply run loose with one another in a huge pack, all day.

I also want to add that I am not CM.

Some things that he can do, I can too. Some, I cannot.

Some things that he can do, you can too. Some, you cannot.*

Also, his pack is his pack. Your pack does not include strange dogs, right? His pack members all get along. But what does that have to do with your pack and a strange dog?

Hard to word. Like Mike Arnold, I really may need coffee.

I want my dogs to be non-reactive to strange dogs, and I also do not want my dog in a meeting with a strange dog deciding rank issues, as Mike S put it.



*Nothing to do with you; having watched him work, I think that he really is part dog, as he was called in Mexico ("DogBoy," and not, as he says, in a flattering way ).



Edited by Connie Sutherland (03/18/2009 03:02 PM)
Edit reason: asterisk