I'll start off by saying that it would be very tough to beat the experience and knowledge that Mike and Connie have accumulated on dealing with allergies in dogs, so if any of my dogs ever had persistent allergy problems, I would definitely go with their advice.

The following statement got my attention though:

 Quote: keith kaplan

Both my boys seem to have seasonal allergies that display as sneezing, scratching and eye goobers/discharge. I know its not food since this happens during this time of year and goes away into the fall and winter (although its always pretty warm so we have different blooms).

Now what I'm about to describe is based on my experience with only 1 dog (not hundreds of thousands, like Mike and Connie), so I have no idea if it's a common scenario or just a freak occurrence in my lucky dog

My now almost 13-year-old shepherd started displaying symptoms of seasonal allergies when she was around 5-6 years old. Every late summer and fall she'd bite and scratch at her legs. It got worse every year (only occurred in the summer/fall, so definitely seasonal allergies) and by the time she was 8, 9, 10 years old, she would scratch and bite herself raw and bloody and would be visibly in pain.

The vets diagnosed a ragweed allergy and prescribed one steroid after another to control the flare ups, but she was still miserable and obviously in pain, and still scratched herself bloody.

She was on kibble (regular heavy-grain stuff) then, and was switched to raw at 10 years of age, in the spring. That summer and fall she didn't show the slightest symptom of allergies. Nothing. The following summer/fall, again, not a single symptom. The summer/fall after that, nothing again. 3 years on raw and 3 years completely allergy-free.

She also had a whole bunch of other autoimmune conditions which all resolved almost instantly after the switch to a raw diet (no grains of course), so I definitely don't think it was coincidental.

Now as I said, this is just one dog, so I have no idea how common it is for something like grains - and all the other crap in the kibble we used to feed - to trigger various seemingly unrelated autoimmune flare ups.

All I can say is that Moka went from being a 10-yr-old dog on multiple steroid treatments (for allergies, for pannus) to being suddenly cured of every single autoimmune issue she ever had within weeks of the diet switch (and not a single steroid treatment in the past 3 years!). Yep, even her pannus is completely gone She was almost blind by the time we switched her, yet the vet couldn't find a trace of the disease & said her eyes looked great at her checkup last year...

Maybe Moka's just an extremely unusual case, but it might be worthwhile to search for any potential "irritants" (food in my dog's case) that may be contributing to the dog's propensity for developing autoimmune disorders.

Not extreme.

Switching to real food is always a number one step for me. Fish oil (plus E) -- number two.

I don't presume to speak for Mike Armstrong, but I know after a long email correspondence with him that those are his first two steps too.

It's an immune response. Everything to support the immune system should be the first steps, IMHO, and how much more profound of an immune system support can there be than appropriate fresh food?

Actual canine food allergies are rare compared to flea and then environmental/inhalant, but what you describe isn't weird. Think of how many people have posted here with how many different (wildly varied) ailments that spontaneously resolved with appropriate food.

 Quote: yuko blum

I have no idea how common it is for something like grains - and all the other crap in the kibble we used to feed - to trigger various seemingly unrelated autoimmune flare ups.

My guess, based on pretty wide experience, would be "very."

 Quote: connie sutherland

 Quote: yuko blum

I have no idea how common it is for something like grains - and all the other crap in the kibble we used to feed - to trigger various seemingly unrelated autoimmune flare ups.

My guess, based on pretty wide experience, would be "very."

I used to be convinced of that, until I started hearing about all the dogs who ARE on a grain-free raw diet who still have allergies (all the stuff you and Mike go on about, for instance ).

Maybe there's something else in the environment that's still acting as an irritant... if not food, then maybe exposure to chemicals, repeated vaccines, or all those toxic tick/flea/worm meds that some dogs are bombarded with throughout the year.

Of course there always seems to be a genetic component contributing to an individual's susceptibility to autoimmune diseases, so depending on how strong the genetic influence is, it's possible that no change in the dog's environment will alleviate its health problems.

So simple, isn't it?

 Quote: Yuko Blum

I started hearing about all the dogs who ARE on a grain-free raw diet who still have allergies (all the stuff you and Mike go on about, for instance ).

Yes. Immune disorders are not simple. We can talk about vaccinations, overuse (or very early use) of antibiotics, too-limited early exposure to varied bacteria, inbreeding, and a dillion other things, but allergies are wildly complicated.

I could never be an allergist --- cannot even imagine the disciplines that would have to be mastered.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

Think of how many people have posted here with how many different (wildly varied) ailments that spontaneously resolved with appropriate food.

Like this: http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=232408#Post232408

 Quote: yuko blum

. . . Now what I'm about to describe is based on my experience with only 1 dog (not hundreds of thousands, like Mike and Connie). . . it might be worthwhile to search for any potential "irritants" (food in my dog's case) that may be contributing to the dog's propensity for developing autoimmune disorders.

Well, maybe Connie has dealt with numbers like that, but for me, it's been merely two dogs, both with pretty severe allergies. But I'm stubborn and keep looking for the magic bullet that will bring complete, long-lasting relief - but there doesn't seem to be one. After all these years, my conclusion is that there are two separate aspects to address when treating allergies. Maybe this will make some sense and help others plan their treatment.

Here, I'm only going to address inhalant/environmental allergies. The symptoms we see - watery eyes, itching, inflammation, etc. - are the result of an immune system that doesn't /can't shut off the body's response to a perceived threat or attack when it's actually harmless pollen, dust, etc. So there are two things you have to address:

1. Eliminate the irritant - tree/grass pollen, dust, dust mites, mold spores, etc. Hence, we wash, vacuum, filter the air, launder, and everything else possible in an attempt to get rid of the irritant. It's hard to tell how successful you are when you can't actually see, or even isolate (here's where a derm vet comes in) the irritants you're dealing with. But if you are successful, the allergy problems won't occur.

2. Treat the immune system. The particular cells that are supposed to counterbalance the immune response to threats (the inflammation, itching, etc.) either didn't develop properly or in sufficient numbers to do their job. So whatever can be done to improve immune system efficiency can help shut off the mistaken response. Meds will work, but are not the preferred method.

For me, a raw diet and probiotic supplements (yogurt/kefir/powders) have been helpful. And it seems logical to me that a good diet with some supplementation and with a minimal amount of chemicals will make the system stronger and healthier. The pleasant breath, increased activity level and nice healthy coat tells me that something is making the dog healthier.

I think food could fall into either catagory, or maybe even both. The crap-in-a-bag we talk about may contain ingredients and chemicals that could trigger an immune response and/or the nutritional value be inadequate to the point that it contributes to immune system deficiencies.

So, with work and some luck, partial success in addressing both those aspects will combine to give your dog some relief.

JMO

Mike

Here is a link to the picture of Flash's mouth. You will see that where his lip meets is where it is black.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/36322949@N06/3372441855/

 Quote: Keith Kaplan

Here is a link to the picture of Flash's mouth. You will see that where his lip meets is where it is black.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/36322949@N06/3372441855/

Much clearer.

Is that area usually damp?

Mike, you said this all so well.

Two thumbs up.