And, I think you need to remember, if she was caged, the world is HUGE and overwhelming. Sensory overload may have been part of her problem. Sounds like she is getting over that now and doing the walking like suggested will help.

I broke down my rescue's potty times by saying sqat each time she would squat to pee and poop when she would poop and then praises, (Good squat! Good Poop!) during the pee and poop. She caught on quick. You don't have to break it down, but I did for her.

She also would not go out and "pee" in a designated area until I walked her. Then I would notice her hindquarters start to drop and we walked quickly to the pee area and I just let her circle and find the perfect spot. She is coming along nicely now. She will "squat" on command most of the time now, and poop on command every time.

Your girl will get it.

 Quote: jo harker

And, I think you need to remember, if she was caged, the world is HUGE and overwhelming. Sensory overload may have been part of her problem. Sounds like she is getting over that now and doing the walking like suggested will help.

I broke down my rescue's potty times by saying sqat each time she would squat to pee and poop when she would poop and then praises, (Good squat! Good Poop!) during the pee and poop. She caught on quick. You don't have to break it down, but I did for her.

She also would not go out and "pee" in a designated area until I walked her. Then I would notice her hindquarters start to drop and we walked quickly to the pee area and I just let her circle and find the perfect spot. She is coming along nicely now. She will "squat" on command most of the time now, and poop on command every time.

Your girl will get it.

Yes, she will.

With a particularly tough case (chained outside for 7 years or so) who had zero perception of places to potty and places not to, and another one who perceived "indoors" as THE place to go (having lived in a kennel for years), I used the weekend thing. This for me is simply setting aside days to spend much time outdoors with the dog.

There can be no holding-it-until-back-indoors when you are outdoors for hours. The potties can be celebrated joyously, including (maybe on day 2) a word ("potty" or whatever) to associate with it. Ed, for example, has mentioned saying "Good outside!" when a pup is in training. I use "potty" to mean outdoor potty, so I would say "Good potty!" (This associates the word and deed so that you can ask for potty later, even making a certain spot or two the designated spots by going straight there and asking for potty.)

My best results have come when I concentrated more on celebrating the outdoor potty than on trying to fix indoor potty.

In this case, where pee-pads have confused the issue further, I betcha that you will find it very useful to get that outdoor habit cemented, and spending some time outdoors where no mistakes can happen will kick-start it.

I would also be 100% vigilant about tethering the dog to me while indoors, again reducing the chances for mistakes to almost zero.

This can be any light line that elicits no bad reaction. It's so important that, if necessary, I would devote some time to making that line attractive, giving very high-value treats near it, while touching it, etc.

No tension on it -- just keeping the dog within sight at all times so that any mistake in the works can be instantly seen and the dog can be calmly swooped outside for "good potty."

The crates: Have you given each dog his/her own crate now?

Two-dogs-in-one-crate is not good in any way for either dog and is equally not-good for the bonding process or for your pack structure work.

Susan,

Other than food, tethering is the single most helpful thing I have done with my dog.

It works with the pottying, bonding, ob training, pack structure, and just about anything.

Read all that is on this web site about tethering, try it out and you will be sold on it, too.

Thanks for all the great suggestions.

Today I did the continuous walking - and she was hesitating at certain points, then she would shake her head and paw at the leash. However, I kept getting down at her level and calling her to me and when that seemed to go okay for awhile, the one time she fussed at the leash, I just very gently kept pulling on it and she came walking to me again, almost running.

Since that time she has walked right behind me the rest of today and we have walked up and down and up and down the whole yard - always moving. When she stops to sniff, I wait and as soon as she lifts her head we are moving again, unless she really seems about to do something.

She did pee finally a couple of times (two times in one day is rare for her!) and she did it once in our potty area and the other time in another dog's potty area down the way a bit. I made a big fuss over her each time.

However, we did have the usual episode today - I had her outside so much all day hoping she would poop, but I had to leave at a little after 1pm for a doctor appointment.

I had them outside for a good half hour before I had to leave and the puppy always does her thing, but nothing from Abby. Anyway - while gone she pooped in her crate. I pretty much expected it - she seems to do this mid day - either late morning or early afternoon, but I tried so hard to get her to go before I had to leave.

But the really nice thing is she is walking all over with me and actually starting to leave my side a bit and investigate the ground herself. So - better than before, and we'll keep on walking her all over the place and being outside as much as possible.

It was a nice day today too, it doesn't work so well when it's really cold out or raining.

I'll try the tethering thing too so she stays by me which she tends to do anyway when in the house and not in her crate. But this way she can't wander off unexpectedly and do something in a corner somewhere.

Thanks again for all the help - I guess consistency and persistent training is the answer. I will do the same over the weekend - as much outside as possible. Thank goodness spring is coming and it's getting better in Michigan!

Susan

Oh, and I wanted to say thanks to Jo as well about the sensory overload comment - and how huge the world seems to a dog who has spent her life in a small crate. It's exactly how she acted - pretty hesitant outside at first and afraid - but she's so much better now with the walking all over. I know she had to learn to trust me out there and learn that anywhere I took her in the big yard she would be okay. Thanks!

Susan

Glad to hear you/she are having some success.

I over-think, over-anxietize (is that a word?) everything, but if you have the time and inclination, start a written log of her potty experiences. It is very helpful in trying to ascertain what is going on with the dog.

Good luck.

ps

You will love the tethering after you see the bonding between you and the dog.

Good idea - I'll see a pattern better that way, I would guess. Thanks for that!

Just a little bit ago I had them outside again and she actually started playing with the puppy and ran once with her. And more sniffing of the ground than before too.

So she is starting to enjoy her time outside and gradually get more comfortable with what is out there.

How exactly do you tether your dog - what do you use - should I use something different from her outside leash? Tethering will be easy with her since she always wants to be right beside me anyway.

The puppy is another story! She came from the same puppy mill but wasn't there long enough for them to cause lasting harm. I think she was a mess up on the breeding situation - she is mixed and no one seems to really know what she is. The mill said she was Lahsa Apso/Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, the rescue league said she was Shih Tzu/Yorkie, and she looks exactly like a Portugese Water Dog puppy. Spitting image. So who knows??!!

Anyway, thanks for the help again!

Susan

Sounds like she is really coming around. And, she'll do better and better as she feels secure with you.

As to the tethering, my dog is small, so I used a small leash I had and would either tie one end to my jeans belt loop, or most of the time, I pinned it to my sweats (I have a horrible disease that causes me to wear sweats around the house all the time - old, fat and farty, but they don't have a cure yet).

BUT, with two new dogs, I dunno. Hopefully, some more experienced handlers will post. Plus, you want to get the older gal doing potty real good and tethering offers few opportunities for mistakes. That way, you are always setting them up for success and they don't have to deal with failure. Kinda same principles as with the children. lol

Sounds like you may need to tether the pup more than the other. I don't think you can do both at the same time.

Also, you may want to read and of Ed's articles, videos, etc. on this web site about raising two dogs together. I think it get a lot trickier in the pack structure.

I haven't posted in a long time and want to give an update. The puppy mill rescue that I talked about before has turned into the greatest dog. She gradually learned to leash, play with toys, potty outside, and loves her crate when I've got to go out or to work and at night.

I just kept walking her and walking her and crated her on a schedule until she learned what it was I wanted her to do outside. It was like a light bulb went off when she discovered she did not have to soil her own crate and it was so much more pleasant to do this outside!! She knows the word potty so well, she almost will do it on command.

It was like the small steps one makes with a handicapped child. The final big accomplishment was this last week when she finally learned to come down about 20 stairs from my upstairs to the main floor.

The puppy that I got soon after her will be a year in November and she is great too and has been such a huge influence in teaching the older one new tricks! It was actually her that finally got Abby to come down the stairs. I had been taking her a step at a time, right beside her, but she would never do it without me. This last week the puppy went up and down and kept showing her. That didn't work, so the puppy actually went up, stood beside her, and nudged her each step, one at a time. It was like watching the most amazing herding job!! Anyway - she made it all the way down. Of course she got major praise and treats!

So the next day, the same thing, this time a little faster. The 3rd day, she pretty much did it on her own. I was soo proud of her.

So finally I have two great dogs, and thanks to all for your great advice. By the way, I remember discussion about crating separately. I decided to take that advice as well and crate them separately when I am not at home. They each have a crate, where they can see one another, in the kitchen. However, at night time, they sleep together in a bigger crate, in my bedroom, and they love that too. They are good for at least 8 hours, and since I work an afternoon shift, and don't go to bed until about 2am, that is a good thing!

They are extremely close, snuggle together and never fight. So this has worked out very well. I truly enjoy both of them and looking back, I thought I'd never get to this point! I take them with me as often as possible too for car rides and walks out in the parks rather than just at home and they love that too.

Thanks for all your help!

Susan (& Abby and Lexie)