Quote: Michele McAtee

However, by doing so, it teaches the dog nothing of course. Given what she already displays at even the sound ? of the mower, it will build more frustration if she is put up during a mowing.

I thought we were talking about wheels. Must've missed the mention of the sound of the mower.

I don't think it's the sound of the mower that bothers her. She's attacking the wheels and not fixating on the mower as a whole. Her fixation is definitely on the wheels. Also she fixates on the wheels of the wagon.

 Quote: Cindy Easton Rhodes

I disagree with giving the dog an alternate object to obsess with for a few reasons. I don't like my dog to get in that state of mind for any reason, not a toy, not a vehicle. I want my dogs to be clear headed and clear thinking. There are many dogs that can play with toys and it's fine but there are a number of dogs out there that become even more obsessive/compulsive if allowed to play with toys that bring that behavior out. I know this because I have owned a few over the years.

IF you can't get success with desensitizing, then I recommend making the mower, wagon and anything else that causes her to escalate into this behavior an aversive. The drive you see in her now is nothing compared to what it will be when she's 3 years old so I would suggest you nip this in the bud now.

Cindy, can you help me with my search-fu and point me to some of the stuff you or Ed have written on desensitizing or making objects an aversive? I agree I need to nip this in the bud. I've let this go too long already. I'm just looking for the best way to handle it.

 Quote: Cindy Easton Rhodes

I disagree with giving the dog an alternate object to obsess with for a few reasons. I don't like my dog to get in that state of mind for any reason, not a toy, not a vehicle. I want my dogs to be clear headed and clear thinking.

I'm really glad you brought this up. With some dogs, I totally agree, distraction with a toy can make the clear headed-ness go out the window and the obsession worse. With 2 dogs I've done this with, the toy seemed to calm them, as I used it as their reward for ignoring the machines. Eventually, they did not even continue chomping on the ball because I was not engaging them for play, they'd just ignore vacuum/mower.

And, yes, these obsessions are dangerous. I flashed on Ava's teeth last night, as she was attempting at the metal bars too before she caught the thick plastic base.

How do you train aversion with a swing (mower, vacuum) I'm thinking bitter apple all over (lol) or a strong correction. ? What other ways can aversion be taught?

 Quote: Michele McAtee

 Quote: Cindy Easton Rhodes

I disagree with giving the dog an alternate object to obsess with for a few reasons. I don't like my dog to get in that state of mind for any reason, not a toy, not a vehicle. I want my dogs to be clear headed and clear thinking.

How do you train aversion with a swing (mower, vacuum) I'm thinking bitter apple all over (lol) or a strong correction. ? What other ways can aversion be taught?

The easiest way is with an electric collar. If you do it quite early in the dog's experiences you need a very low level and it happens real quick. All I want is for the dog to quit showing interest in whatever it is..mower, cars, chickens...

I use the ecollar on a low level along with a long line (to prevent them leaving) with my last couple dogs as they grew up to teach neutrality to our free range poultry and horses.

I also use marker training with my dogs so after I give the stim for whatever it is, I then give them a command they know and enjoy like the recall. I can then mark and reward the recall and make it worth their while to leave the chickens alone.

Too many people wait until the dog is REALLY obsessed to decide they need to fix it and then you will probably need to use a much higher level on the ecollar.

It is hell to try to break. I would stay with desensitizing as much as possible since she is young but, if this doesn't work or when this stops working a very hard correction is in order IMHO. Even then, they tend to forget and need to be reminded.

The herding/prey drive obsession is not only dangerous for the dog but, for people and other animals as well. Some elderly friends of mine had a border collie that would ocassionally take a notion to herd the wife, he eventually bit her so badly on her foot and ankle she was in a wheelchair for 3 months and he was euthanized as it was his third offense. His drives over-rode his good sense. Imagine if this happened to a child.

I am the forum member that had the 4-wheeler incident that Cindy was referring to....I have tried every trick I know of to stop/control the wheel obession. It's been a challenge. In the said event, I let up so to speak for a split second, he did a "drive by" and grabbed the front wheel, teeth got hung, he did a flip, I thought I had killed him. Checked him out and thought everything was fine. Must have cracked his tooth because 4 days later after his evening meal it was broken. The day before this happened I caught him circling the 4-wheeler and biting the tires when it was parked under the shed. He got a correction for this.....

We got his tooth patched up and the 4-wheeler is now parked about 15 feet from the front of his crate so he has to walk by it all the time, he knows he best ignore it.

Haven't been on any wheeler outings since the incident. His invisible boundry is normally about 20 ft. Next time the punishment will fit the crime. The crime being...don't circle the vehicle and don't come closer that 20ft. He knows the rules, he just can't help it when he thinks there is even a remote possibility that he can get that fix....it's his crack!!!

Guess my point is, it is easier to put a stop to at 4 months than 3 years.

Is your baby going to have a job or is she a companion only?

Forgot to say she's mighty cute and does have a twinkle in her eye! Have fun.

Cindy's suggestion with low level e-collar and then reward for something good is an excellent.

Unfortunately, this did not work for my seasoned tire lover!

Actually, mine does okay and is easy to manage until I am the one driving. I am open to any and all suggestions myself.

 Quote: debbie high

I am the forum member that had the 4-wheeler incident that Cindy was referring to....I have tried every trick I know of to stop/control the wheel obession. It's been a challenge. In the said event, I let up so to speak for a split second, he did a "drive by" and grabbed the front wheel, teeth got hung, he did a flip, I thought I had killed him. Checked him out and thought everything was fine. Must have cracked his tooth because 4 days later after his evening meal it was broken. The day before this happened I caught him circling the 4-wheeler and biting the tires when it was parked under the shed. He got a correction for this.....

Guess my point is, it is easier to put a stop to at 4 months than 3 years.

That's a pretty dramatic story and I appreciate the magnitude of the problem Suzzie is developing. I don't yet have an ecollar. My wife is going to kill me if I ask. She's already uptight about how much money I'm spending on this dog. I think what I'll try is to just keep her crated while I mow and work on marker training with the kids' wagon. Maybe after a couple more paychecks the wife will let me do an ecollar.

 Quote:

Is your baby going to have a job or is she a companion only?

Well, I mainly got her as a companion and once she's old enough a jogging partner. My story is that I wasn't looking for an Aussie, but a friend has this pup she needed to re-home and wasn't having much luck. So I took her because I was looking for a dog and thought I could step up to the challenge.

As such, I'm realizing that she really needs more than just a walk or two a day and vegging in my office with me. So I'm not sure what I'm going to do with her. As cool as it sounds, I don't really have the time to invest in learning to actually herd stock. I think it'd be unfair to both the dog and the stock to only dabble in herding without being able to commit to really training her in it.

As a substitute I saw this cute video of "sam" that I posted yesterday elsewhere on this forum "herding" a boomerball. That looked really good and something I could pretty easily do in my back yard. Searched for some other videos on youtube of boomerball and seems like a nice alternative to working with live stock. Clearly though it's not the same as live stock, but I could work on some of the same skills at our own pace.

Wowza Debbie. I've heard of dogs like that...go figure, you got one! lol!

Since you are open to any and all suggestions, (keep in mind I am not a professional) is there anyway he can actually ride on the 4 wheeler with you? Desensitize him like you are doing now with it being parked and walking by it, but then start it up with him on it? Work up to riding and then walking slowly next to it?

FWIW, I did activate a prong correction on Ava yesterday on the swing, timed it perfectly, right when she looked and just as she was going to step towards the swing in action. Swift, seemingly effective, as she was later glancing at the swing, but would not go over to it, and I immediately jumped into recalls and fun ob afterwards. Huge difference. Luckily, (?--lol) I have a dog for whom this just might cut the bill.

All positive is fine and excellent, but if a dog is doing something that will hurt itself or someone else, I agree, aversion is an order. There are some fine lines to walk in this decision. And again, it depends on the dog and plans for and with the dog.

Debbie, did your dog muster up this level over time too? Just now starting to take it to the limits? Or is the 4 wheeler something new in his life?

I have tried getting him to ride....didn't work, matter of fact it could be quite dangerous......tried putting a leash on him, I nearly lost a finger and the leash broke. Had to have my rings cut off and my finger still wont' straighted out. He is a good sized dog and is quiet strong.

He was older when I got him and was already amped on it. As I said he does okay with other vehicles and I'm standing there. I have no doubt that left on his own he would be chasing cars up and down the road. When I walk toward the wheeler the race is on.... worked for over 30 minutes at a time for several days in a row to get him to lay down til I release him and go. The problem is that I am not willing to turn the e-collar up high enough to make the proper impression on him. Yes, I am a candybutt!!!! His marker training is excellent. Just has this one ism about him. He won't even stop to pee or drink water if the wheeler is even running. I have to turn it off, walk away and make him come with me. He's addicted!

My other dogs love going wheelin.....I'm afraid this one is going to lose his privileges. Sort of takes the fun out of the whole thing. He's a cool dog and we have lots of fun except for this one thing.