Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005
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I just wanted to add that, as many many very experienced folks have stated over and over: If you don't feel comfortable with something a trainer wants you to do with your dog or wants to do to your dog -- walk away. You can never un-do. I'm not saying at all that this trainer is abusive or anything else; I'm just saying that the owner should always feel completely comfortable and never uneasy with a trainer. JMO.
Louise Ruggiero Webboard User Reg: 06-17-2009
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Thanks for the feedback and let me expand the 30 mn down that was advocated. I believe in positive reinforcement for behavior. This was not based on an increment of 1mn then praise fo the berhavior and extending the time , in other words to make the dog successful. This was a continuous exercise no matter the outcome to put the dog down manually by extending the paws for a period of 30 minutes and then releasing, The release is not based upon staying down for an increasing amount of time, but on being putted down for 30 minutes. This seems to me more of a dominance exercise. The goal not being learning the stay down but enforcing the handler's dominance. Of course the dog is going to give up at one point but this does not seem very positive.
I had done the 30 minute down with my dobie when she was older and new the command well .
Now maybe this is not taught the way it should be. Apparently there is a sit exercise for 10 mn based on the same principles.
Louise Ruggiero Webboard User Reg: 06-17-2009
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Hi
Just to clarify with the trainer she is very nice and was not harsh or anything but i think it is a different philosophy,
The head of the school was very defensive when i brought up my questions.
To me this exercise was more negative reinforcement where you stop a behavior to avoid an unpleasant consequence, behavior being getting up, and the removal of the negative the handler putting you down. as opposed to positive reinforcement where you get reinforced when doing a behavior by whatever the reinforcer is food praise toy
This is not a reflection on the Volhard method because I do not their methods it was my first exposure, my other classes were all based on positive reinforcement . I had a very loving ,behaved and friendly dobie.
I want a good handle on my Beauceron he is going to be quite large.
Lynne Barrows Webboard User Reg: 09-22-2007
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Loc: S. Florida
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Louise, if you are posting about this, you must have some grave concerns about this method of training.
So what you are saying is that you physically force the puppy into a down position, and then physically hold him or place him back into the down position until the 30 minutes is up?
This sounds like a great way to train a pup to loathe training... **we were posting at the same time...so you aren't palnning on using this method are you?
Louise Ruggiero Webboard User Reg: 06-17-2009
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Hi Lynne
Let me explain this better you do not hold the puppy down for 30 mn you just repeatly put him down during a 30 mn period ( which for my dog was continous)
Could it be that they got it all wrong?
I had my second class next week I am not going well lost of money but this seems not right for me.
Louise Ruggiero Webboard User Reg: 06-17-2009
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Well there were 4 dogs total, this is suppose to be a puppy class my dog was the youngest at 10 weeks, the others are more 3 and 4 months ( I think)
I should have gone and wacth a class, my mistake.
The instructor showed how to make the dog sit By having the dog by her side and gently tucking the bottom under, then how to go up was gently nudging on the back legs that all was fine but my dog knows all this except they were doing it at your left side, no food or anything was used to reinforce the behavior.
The put down was demonstrated actually with my dog by gently putting him down by extending his legs when he tried to get up, he was putted down again (gently) my dog was biting and not too cooperative The Instructor was ignoring these behaviors, that was it, he was repeatly put down (Not for 30 mn ) it would have taken the class but that was what was showed. By the way I am working at the biting issue which is going well this was increasing the behaviors. The instructor was always calm but continue to repaeat the put down.
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Re: 30 minute down
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