He is beautiful, bright eyed and smiling! And his name suits him

Also, everything Connie said!

He knows I have food, by smell or anytime he see's the treat pouch. He is very food motivated. You could open any misc food item in another room and he comes running. The food as a bribe was a starting point. He doesn't see the food anymore till after he performs any given command. It seems like the general consensus is that I should go back to the foundation and give him more slack due to his age. About how long is the typical learning phase?(I know if varies but a guestimate)

Kamron,
Your mentioning that the e collar may have been misused (abusive) on him in the past could be right on.
I remember years past watching bird doggers training for field trials. E collars were still relatively new and rather primative by todays standards. I thought then and still think it was some of the most abusive training I've had the misfortune to witness. I can well imagine there are still some like minded training gun dogs today. So your suggestion of mishandling at the wrong end of an e collar may be not far off the mark.

For the same reasons I'd avoid using a command word a dog has bad associations with, I'd forget nicking the dog for training purposes. I think if you want to continue to use an e collar I'd advise; just stick to the so called page function (it's just a vibration).
Use the shock value only for dire emergencies, ie. the dog is heading for real trouble.

Other then those thoughts, read and reread anything Connie and the other marker/rewards experts here offer. They've all rescued and rehabed lots of animals, some with serious problems.
Hope this ramble helps.

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

I was kinda mulling this thread over on the dog outting this morning and I came to the conclusion that if I was taking in a dog (any dog) with an unknown or even a known back ground; I would retrain all the command words commonly used to less common ones.
I'd do it just on general principle if nothing else. But it can have added bonuses on a dog of unknown past handling, because for the dog it really does put the past where it belongs.
Today, now, this minute, come means something good and has nothing at all to do with what did or what didn't happen yesteryear.

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

 Quote: randy allen

I was kinda mulling this thread over on the dog outting this morning and I came to the conclusion that if I was taking in a dog (any dog) with an unknown or even a known back ground; I would retrain all the command words commonly used to less common ones.
I'd do it just on general principle if nothing else. But it can have added bonuses on a dog of unknown past handling, because for the dog it really does put the past where it belongs.
Today, now, this minute, come means something good and has nothing at all to do with what did or what didn't happen yesteryear. ...
If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

This is a great, really GREAT, thought.

Not just back up in method, but start clean.

 Quote: kamron ghani

... It seems like the general consensus is that I should go back to the foundation and give him more slack due to his age. About how long is the typical learning phase?(I know if varies but a guestimate)

I didn't particularly mean "due to his age." And "slack" wasn't really what I meant either.

It's basic foundation work to have no confusion at all about what is expected and to have done thorough proofing before corrections.

I'd just start over because of the missing of these two crucial factors. Also, you will be thrilled to develop the kind of bond that you will develop with real marker work.

I'm kind of envious. Seeing a dog who has been shutting down become a dog who loves nothing better than training ... is a joy.

 Quote: randy allen

I was kinda mulling this thread over on the dog outting this morning and I came to the conclusion that if I was taking in a dog (any dog) with an unknown or even a known back ground; I would retrain all the command words commonly used to less common ones.

You should mull more often Randy. Pure genius! I bet this would be beneficial in many circumstances.

After some more foundation work, I found out that I fudged it a bit. I found out that I got into a routine where I would have him sit, down, stay, and recall in a certain order. So he would anticipate my next command based on order. I noticed this when I changed up the order and asked for Paw and he would down, or I would say down and he came from a sit-stay. Eventually I will start to correct him for not complying. Should I do a couple of weeks of leash corrections, then slowly introduce the e-collar stim/vibrate with a leash correction?

Can we go back to the foundation work for a bit? You mentioned that you were using food rewards. Do you know anything about marker training?

There was apparently e-collar abuse in the dog's background, and then some accidental "pattern training" that you corrected for the confusion over.

I'd probably want to spend plenty of time on this dog's real foundation work, with no "fudging" ( ) and lots of clarity.

Are you still working on basic ob without distraction and change of venue? If so, then IME you are more likely going to run into the dog's continuing confusion than deliberate failure to comply.

I also agree with Randy: "For the same reasons I'd avoid using a command word a dog has bad associations with, I'd forget nicking the dog for training purposes. I think if you want to continue to use an e collar I'd advise; just stick to the so called page function (it's just a vibration)."

I'd be spending time on developing a bond with this dog, and especially with upbeat training.

eta
And if you would like to learn about marker training, you're in the right place. This is the way to instill clarity and timing into your training.


Edited by Connie Sutherland (08/11/2009 09:13 AM)
Edit reason: eta

I'd just like to add that if you take the time to learn marker training you're going to see a dog that lights up for training time, rather than shuts down in fear of corrections.

My Lab is a soft dog, and can shut down if I look at him wrong. He likes to be RIGHT. With marker training I can carefully tell him he's "not quite right" and he'll continue working with me forever.

I don't look at using food during training as a bribe. I think of it as a paycheck. I know I'd be mighty unwilling to work for no reward.