Quote: barbara schuler

The example you give as using the ecollar as a long leash is good... you give a known command, the dog does not respond so you then nick at the lowest level needed. Where I am confused is whether this is "avoidance training" as you reffered to above. If so, what makes it undesireable and what is "really being accomplised"? I guess I'm not clear on what makes the situation with Kodee negative (in regard to how the collar was used)as compared to how the collar should have been used in this situation? I'm sure the light bulb will go on here shortly...

I think, to use the leash example:

You recall your dog. Your dog ignores you. You than issue a correction.

The dog still ignores you.

Which means one of two things, in my opinion:
-the recall is not properly proofed; or
-the dog could give a #$%# if you have something to say or a command to give (which, really, would fall under 'the recall is not properly proofed')

So, is is the fault of the dog that it's training hasn't been properly proofed, or is it the fault of the trainer? Maybe the trainer didn't realize the dog wasn't proofed at that level, but would appear that there wasn't work proofing at that level of distraction yet so any further, potentially punitive, correction isn't really fair to the dog - it's training hasn't progressed far enough to be solid in the recall under that distraction. If you know that distraction is a possiblity, than the trainer should keep the dog on a long line or use some other method to ensure compliance short of avoidance. Use a long line even if the e-collar is on, if the proofing isn't finished (IMO).

So, your dog ignores. But YOU haven't properly proofed your dog. Do you:

a)issue a big leash/collar correction (stim it in the ecollar) so that it goes into avoidance and comes back - not really fair, you haven't trained the dog to not do what it's doing (though, maybe this was necessary to save the cat, I don't know); or

b)bring the dog in using back-up methods because you haven't properly proofed the distractions.

Which is appropriate in this situation? I think that is Randy's point.

I may not have laid out the a-b things properly, but that's how I work through the situation.

I'm not comfortable with Neb's recall in certain places due to distractions, so he stays on leash or longline. I think when you are training you need to not just tell a dog what to do, you need to really take a look at what you are doing, what you have accomplished, and where you want to go, and consider what you need to do to get there and where you are missing the pieces, and how you will cover those pieces until you've got them. With all due respect to Kori, it sounds to me like this didn't entirely happen or the situation never would have been allowed to occur the way it did. Just my inexperienced opinion though.

Somehow I think my op is being construed as a criticism of Kori's actions.
It was not intended that way. After all who wants a dead cat and a torn up dog?
My intent was for her to reflect on what happened, the response, and to file it mentally into the proper department.

I sorry if the tenor came across as criticism, it was not intended that way.

 Quote: randy allen

Somehow I think my op is being construed as a criticism of Kori's actions.
It was not intended that way. After all who wants a dead cat and a torn up dog?
My intent was for her to reflect on what happened, the response, and to file it mentally into the proper department.

I sorry if the tenor came across as criticism, it was not intended that way.

I didn't take it as negative at all - I'm just trying to learn from this! Since it is something we continue to deal with with Falcon and our cats, I want to make sure I'm understanding what was said and how to incorporate it (or not) in what we are doing.

:-)

 Quote: randy allen

Somehow I think my op is being construed as a criticism of Kori's actions.
It was not intended that way. After all who wants a dead cat and a torn up dog?
My intent was for her to reflect on what happened, the response, and to file it mentally into the proper department.

I sorry if the tenor came across as criticism, it was not intended that way.

Hi, Randy-

I actually construed it as criticism, but now I think I understand what you're saying (after I finished reading all the responses). I wasn't bragging that Kodee's recall is perfect, I was saying how glad I am that when he ignores a verbal command, I can still correct him and control him (even though I had to use the stim for the control). Does that make sense?

I was just very glad that I could "reach out and touch him" from a distance, when he didn't obey.

Kori,

Were you using the nick function on the e-collar? To me, that is the same as a leash correction -- no avoidance training there that I see if that's what you were doing. I use stimulation in the same way to disengage Ellie from deer-chasing. "No", nick, "No", nick, "No" nick -- usually it only takes 1-2 and she'll return back to me. But that's what Cindy and Ronnie Hoff advised me in the deer-chasing scenario awhile back -- which is somewhat similar to Kodee and the cat it sounds like.

Continuous stimulation (and increasing levels) until the pursuit is broken would be what I would call "avoidance training" -- but I'm not certain that's what you were describing, Kori?

Katie

What should I do if there is no setting high enough that a "nick" will work?

 Quote: jason sidener

What should I do if there is no setting high enough that a "nick" will work?

Good question!

I should say I'm assuming recall foundation work was/should be done i.e. restrained recalls and long-line directed recalls.

To me, the e-collar is an invisible long-line and a logical progression in training in this type of situation.

I'm giving Kori the benefit of doubt that she wasn't just slapping an e-collar on and waiting for her dog to chase the cat and continuously stimming him to recall...

Katie

 Quote: katie o'connor

Kori,

"No", nick, "No", nick, "No" nick -

Katie,

Yes, absolutely. I used the nick button and did exactly what you just described (and as Ed's DVD described). I have never used the continuous button on Kodee for anything. I should have clarified that. I didn't think to be specific about it, as it's the "only" button on the remote, as far as I'm concerned. Sorry!

I don't know if I should even ask a question on this thread because I'm not sure I'll ever get to the point that my dog is off leash, but here goes anyway.

Isn't a leash correction avoidance?

(As Randy says, just to mentally file it where it goes)

Lease corrections also fall under necessary tools to prevent "absolutely undesirable behavior" but they are avoidance, no?

Nora,
Yes it can be argued that leash corrections is avoidance training. And many do, and I'm not sure I'd want to argue otherwise.
For me (rightly or wrongly) I believe there's a line though that divide the two. Leash work involves more of, 'no, think about what you're doing'. Where as avoidance work involves more of a 'no don't think about 'it'......EVER!'
That's the difference for me.


But yes Nora, you're right. At the root of leash work is avoidance training.