GIven that definintion there is some thought. THe way most people use the term, using human like "language", or "deep" "rational" thought, no.

I prefer to refrain from these moot topics, but....How can any dog owner state that their dogs do not think and reason? I will agree that dogs do not think like humans, they think like dogs, no anthropomorphizing here. However there are some in mankind that get very bent out of shape to even envision that other creatures, other than humans might have the tiniest bit of intelligence (gasp!)

There are a number of definitions for thinking and reasoning: Think: Oxford #2: to use one's mind to solve problems. Websters #2: to have a certain thing as a subject of one's thoughts. Reason: Oxford #2: use one's ability to think and draw conclusions. Webster #3:the mental power concerned with forming conclusions or inferences.

So moving right along I will relate a recent event. My 11 mos old GSD has learned to open her kennel gate, nothing new to most of you I'm sure <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> and certainly not something you teach your dog to do! A typical chain link gate with the u-shaped latch that drops on either side of a post. She has learned that she cannot jump up on the gate and lift the latch with her nose because of her body weight against the gate, so she has to jump up on the other side and then lift the latch with her nose with ease. Luckily the kennels are inside another gated enclosure with clips on the push to release latches that were mastered 6 months ago. Problem solving or conditioning? Oh, and condition means to train..

People tend to create their own definitions, or fixate on one defination for a word, but such is not the case for the English language. I recall a previous thread where it was stated that dogs don't remember, they recall. Lo and behold, when I looked up recall, it said to remember...hmmmm..

I don't see my dogs getting all philosophical, that kind of thinking but at the momment Websters #2 is at work: my dogs are watching me through the glass door wondering when I will let them in for their recreational bone. And when I do, they will run to their mat and perform a perfect down stay in stereo until they get their treat. That's conditioning! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I'm not the most frequent of posters here preferring to learn from the pros rather than cloud the waters with my 2 cents. But the arguments do tend to get a little anal sometimes. The question of whether dogs think is not, but little nuances like defining a word can be, I suppose. Perhaps there should be another subject area entitled "Debate Society". :rolleyes:

If I had to come up with a human comparison, I would look at "muscle memory" like is seen with atheletes. If Michael Jordan had to think through all the mechanics of shooting a basketball he would never score.

I used to play tennis. When I first started learning I had to concentrate on form and where I wanted to place a shot. I didn't do very good. As I practiced and got better, I could do those things without "thinking" about it. In addition I could anticipate what my opponent would do based on experience with the person, and having an "idea" of what I did with the ball. It isn't a consious thought process, but more of an almost instinct. I learned these behaviors from trial and error, and the skills translated to new situations, but I didn't have to "think" about it to do it.

I don't think dogs think. I don't think that anyone can convince me of it either. . .especially people that aren't scientists with PhDs in canine intelligence or behavior or learning or whatever.

I don't think that will be a problem though, cuz I have not yet run into a PhD in canine anything that thinks dogs think. They tend to agree with me, dogs don't think the way some people think they do.

Besides. . .Dolphins have larger brains and are considered smarter than dogs. . .maybe chimps and the like get closer to thinking, but not that close.

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 Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp Robert:
. . . I have not yet run into a PhD in canine anything that thinks dogs think. They tend to agree with me, dogs don't think the way some people think they do.

That statement brings to mind a comment made by an old-time shepherd with an unbeatable 40 year trial performance record. To paraphrase his remark: the higher the level of education at the top of the SV, the smaller the brain of the GSD has become.

Do you mean dogs don't have thoughts? That there is no there there?

There is no question in my mind at least that dogs can make associations that allow them to connect dots and to make choices if given the opportunity. IMO that is some kind of "thinking".

I see my dogs make choices working sheep every day -- keeping in mind that sheep herding starts out and is built 100% on drive & instinct. However, if I want to develop an independently working dog, I really need to develop the dog's capacity to "think" along with that drive & instinct -- at least enough for the dog to learn to be able to make certain behavioral & directional choices necessary to get a job done without constant direction from me.

Of course if one believes there are no choices in a dog's life, then I guess there is no need for thinking and the dog is far better off without developing that capacity at all. But IMO the capacity to "think" (as opposed to the capacity "to reason") has to begin somewhere in some rudimentary form in any animal that can learn to modify its behavior or assume some sort of control over its environment -- ie. does more than just react mindlessly to stimulae. JMO.

I had a Kerry Blue Terrier that figured out how to open the sliding glass door. I don't believe he gave it much thought cause he never closed it. Very inconsiderate at the very least. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I would have to say that dogs do think, reason, and plan. Take a look a wild wolves. The pack will form a plan in order to take down large prey animals. They work together and use different methods of attack depending on the prey animal. This does take a certain amount of thinking and reasoning. Sure, they don't say to each other, "ok, you two go that way, we'll go this way and the rest come in from the side..." LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> but they are making choices and thinking individually and as a pack.

My 2 year old GSD figured out how to open a latched cupboard to get a treat when she had NEVER SEEN IT OPENED before (so no conditioned responses here). There were dry biscuits that she liked on the counter which she could have filtched quite easily, but she made the CHOICE for one of the soft treats in the cupboard. She sat in front of it for a moment, then tried the latch one way. When it did not open, she tried it the correct way. If that does not constitute thinking, I don't know what does.

I don't know if I think that finding food means a dog can think....

My Nyna can open sliding glass doors, coolers, rubbermaid containers(the kind a human needs two hands to open) among many other types of "dog safe" items. Do I think that means she can think, no... Her behaviors have been infulenced by the smell of food and prior instances have been self rewarding.

She learned at an early age that if you dig at something enough, you will eventually get it. This is an instinct used heavily in narcotics training. I still don't think they think though, not on the grand scale of problem solving level at least....

I would tend to agree with you Deanna, except what convinced me was not that she was ABLE to open the cupboard, but HOW she figured out how to open it. She did not try, try again persistantly until she dug the treat out of the cupboard, she tried the latch ONCE, then STUDIED the latch, then opened it the correct way. This cupboard has a very secure latch on it that clips the door closed. It can only be opened by turning it the right way - not digging/pawing/chewing at it. She figured it out in her mind. To me that means she THOUGHT about it. JMO <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Also, I had never kept her treats in there before so she had never had a chance to see me open it or get a treat out of it. Opening the cupboard had never before been self-gratifying to her. Needless to say, I don't keep her goodies in there any more! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Again, this is just my opinion based on what I have seen my dogs do. I do not claim to be an athority on the subject as I am certainly no scientist and have not conducted any experiments. Nor do I say this story makes this argument conclusive. It is just my thoughts on the matter.