Ditto with delivery guys, in fact. He now gives a big ol' warning bark and then looks at me to see if I am going to say "It's OK."

(Actually, the code is usually "Lawn guys!" "Lawn guys!" means acceptable intruders. When I say it's ok or lawn guys, he sits in preparation for a reward. It's completely ingrained. lol)

 Quote: connie sutherland

He improved steadily over the months and years

Care to give us the "Connie-for-dummies" version of how you accomplished this? I know the methods you used were fair to the dog, which is exactly what I want to do. Somehow communicate to him what I want.

 Quote: Angela Burrell

... Care to give us the "Connie-for-dummies" version of how you accomplished this? I know the methods you used were fair to the dog, which is exactly what I want to do. Somehow communicate to him what I want.

Yes ....

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

I'd probably be working with desensitizing the dog a lot more at the edge of her "circle of influence." I don't want this to even come up:

QUOTE: "When she got really out of control over a small, hyper (out of control) terrier I put her in a submissive position on her side and had the owner with the out of control terrier stay near by, walk around us etc until she finally caved in and relaxed. It took at least 15-20 min to accomplish this. But it seemd to only work temporarily. Maybe I need to work that angle more?"

I'd scope out the walk ahead, the area where we're headed, and I'd calmly and unemotionally change directions.

This:

"When i redirect I get her attention by goosing her in the rear or touching her and then using food or play. She does ok but will immediately turn and lock back on the dog."

just tells me that for the stage we are at, I have allowed the dog to focus waaay too much on the distracting dog before getting my dog's focus and attention on me.

Nuts and bolts: I would be doing very upbeat basic ob with the best rewards possible for the individual dog. Does the dog live for the tug? Then that's in my pocket. Is bacon in the dog's dreams? Then my bait bag is full o' bacon. And we are just at the edge of that circle of influence (or non-reactivity), with a helper, if possible, following my instructions as to what to do and how far away to be with a distraction-dog. (If no helper, I would be on the other side of a fenced area containing distraction-dogs, far enough away for the distraction-dogs to melt into background noise. Only gradually, over time, would we venture closer.)

I'd remember too that the bigger the distraction the dog ignores to focus on me, the bigger and better the reward, up to and including a party with a food jackpot (or whatever your dog loves).

This kind of work, no matter how long or how tedious it may seem when reading it, is going to pay off forever.

Same goes for any distraction that amps up my dog.

In other words, I am seeing this as nothing more than a super-high-level distraction, and I am proofing for it, in exactly the same way that I proof for any distraction.

And I sought out perfect training opportunities. So while I did turn and walk away when I saw a challenge that was either too close to the sidewalk in a fenced yard, screeching away, or maybe hauling his owner by the leash down the road 100 at miles per hour, I looked for less volatile and more controllable circumstances.

Just like I would proof for any high-level distraction, I set up the proofing situation. A friend in the yard (but not close enough to drive my dog crazy), playing frisbee or even just walking his challenge-dog on a leash (whatever works for your dog) ... and I would do ob work (marker) with fabulous rewards. Again, the reward level goes up when the challenge is greater. I want my dog to be focused on me in rapt thrilled expectation. I want me and what I am doing and offering to be more exciting than the challenge-dog is interesting.

So my performance and my rewards have to be better than the distraction challenge, and that takes a combo of fab rewards and starting with the distraction outside my dog's circle of influence. The drawing closer is gradual. I can't picture any situation that I would allow to happen that would require my dog to be put onto the ground until he submitted. I know that can work, but not the way I want or need it to go with my own dog, with whom I have plenty of time and lots of opportunity for setting up the work; with the encouragement of the constant improvement, I can go about it in a foundation-y way.

Time will give gradual improvement. Think how happy I was the first time my dog turned away from a big ol' fenceline bark-fest with his enemy-dog because I called him! His head up, rapidly weighing in his little brain the two alternatives, and coming down on the side of me, the human who is calling him in a "wahoo" voice. This was not instant. This was lots of fun work on the recall and lots of basic ob work done just outside the zone of reactivity.

And just like Ed sometimes saying "good outside" to a dog who has been potty-trained for years, I don't stop polishing this behavior.

 Quote: Angela Burrell

... Somehow communicate to him what I want.

Well ....... maybe proofing for high-level distractions is more a matter of desensitizing while using the individual dog's currency.

I also never give any excited attention to the situation of having the challenge-dog near us. I never reinforce my dog's perception that the challenge-dog is worthy of frantic reactions.

Just like the exercises we all do to shape doorbell behavior, I give the alternative action (ob with wonderful rewards) rather than focusing on the unwanted behavior with corrections.

Corrections may be required, but that would be waaaay down the road, just like with any proofing work: First we proof for venue changes and high-level distraction. Whether the distraction or the command is the focus of the exercise, I think we can conduct the work pretty much the same way.

LOL. Too fuuny. One of the reasons I want this under control is I am not sure if I am keeping her. I do not care for her markings per se. I kept her as she was the only female out of my last litter.
I plan to breed her mother again this fall and if she can produce me a female more like Stryker in temperament and coloring (without the dysplasia of course) then I will likely re-home Flayre. Rogue had difficulty getting PG the first time and had low birth weight pups. Not sure what the cause of that was. If it happens again this time she will be spayed and not bred again. Then that leaves Flayre as my only breeding female to my lines.
So I want some kind of control instilled into her before she was placed. And of course I would place her in an experienced home only.

LOL,
I think I've wandered in to the 'Bad breeding website' thread.

Say has anyone heard from Steve or Alyssa lately?

 Quote: randy allen

I think I've wandered in to the 'Bad breeding website' thread.

About markings?

Hmmm,
Partly yes.

Uh, I'm sure she's a very loving owner.

 Quote: connie sutherland

I have a senior rescue from two summers ago, and he is now at the point where he just sneers condescendingly at a yappy dog and marches on past.

*giggle snort*

Ivan, the Siberian Husky my ex-wife and I had, used to do the same thing.

We're out for a walk, and some little chew-toy Pomeranian (I say "chew-toy" because they make the same sound when you bite them!) came running up, yapping a storm.

Ivan, ever stoic, looked at it, looked at me, looked back at it, and kinda gave this look of "Are you SERIOUS? Really? I've had bowel movements bigger than you. Go away."

Control Unleashed uses counter conditioning to teach a dog a new reponse in a situation that would set them off. It is marker based training.

I've used some of the techniques in the book for my dog reactive Border Collie. He is a sweet submissive dog who gets along great with my other BC, but gets nervous and excited around other dogs - kind of a "I'm a bit stressed and I don't know how to deal with so I'll bark my head off and act tough"

A couple of different techniques are "look at that" (which I thought was totally out there before reading about it) where the dog is taught that looking calmly at the stimulus is rewarded. YOu start with a clicker and a simple oject like the wall and teach the dog to look at it - when he glances, click and reward. Then gradually transfer to other objects and eventually to other dogs. My dog tends to get fixated on cats (ingrained habit when I got him - ugh!) but after consistent "look at that" he was eagerly choosing to just give the cat a glance and focus on me instead.

Another method outlined in the book is "mat games" or teaching you dog to totally relax on a mat, then taking that into other contexts (in the book, highly stimulating agility classes). I did a variation of this with my dog. I taught him to lay flat on the floor with his head between his paws. Then used it in a variety os situations. It bacame a default behavior and something I could use in situations that greatly excited him. I could ask for that down and he was comfortable giving it to me. I could then reward heavily and build on the idea that he could relax in a stimulating situation.