Quote: Lois Miller

I ... commend you for reaching out and asking people for help with this problem. Im sure you will get a ton of great suggestions, I always do.

Stick around.

Absolutely!

Connie:

I couldnt agree more that the babies safety is of emminent concern and MUST be a priority here as well as proper handling of the puppy
My real concern is that when we approach people harshly and in meanspirited tones, that we actually may cause someone to retreat and leave the site without accomplishing what is most probably everyones goal...advise and direction to keep baby and puppy safe.

 Quote: Anne Jones

Your son should not have to be afraid in his own home from ANYTHING. Certainly not your pet.
Um, yeah. I think that was the point of my posting.
If you can't seem to manage your son & pup out at the some time, them maybe they shouldn't be out together.
That would be wonderful in a perfect world, but because we all live in the same house, paths are going to cross occasionally. Even when Kaz is leashed.
If you schedule doesn't allow you proper time for the pup to train it properly & keep your son safe, maybe you should consider re-homing the pup, while he is still young.
Admittedly, our schedules are busy. But our schedules tend to run opposite one another's so one of us is usually home with Kaz. We planned adding the little fuzzball at this point because it allows both of us good chunks of time alone with him to allow him to learn to depend on both of us as his sources of food and interaction. We brought Kaz into the family and he is just that, family. No one gets left behind or rehomed.
And maybe getting a dog later when your schedule will better allow you the time needed to manage training a pup & raising a young child.
Again, we have our reasons for bringing Kaz into our family when we did.
Both are very time consuming.
We have four children ranging from age 16 to 2. I think we're aware of how time consuming children are to raise. Considering adding a puppy to the family is like adding another child, I think we prepared ourselves for that and that is why he was brought into our family when he was.
If you don't get the situation under control while the pup is still young it will get unmanagable by the time the pup is a year old.
Again, we are well aware of this. Hence why we are posting our question looking for ways to get it under control.
I know that everyone wants to have their child raised with pets, but sometimes it is not someting that will work.
Our children have always had pets ranging from fish, to cats, to rabbits, to pigs and even cows. We knew a dog would require quite a bit of one on one. That is why we have waited until now to add one to our family.

And parenthood is not a populatiry contest.
Didn't realize I ever implied it was. I also don't believe I ever implied that the reasons we brought Kaz into the family had anything to even do with the children.

So, thank you for elaborating on your judgement. Our apologies for asking for advice on how to correct the issues we are having on a dog training forum. Perhaps you could direct us to another forum where our questions won't offend your greatness?

 Quote: Lois Miller

I couldnt agree more that the babies safety is of emminent concern and MUST be a priority here as well as proper handling of the puppy
My real concern is that when we approach people harshly and in meanspirited tones .....

I didn't hear that attitude.

I heard concern. For a baby who has been frightened and chewed on.

 Quote: connie sutherland

As Dennis said: "keep the two seperated when unsupervised, when together the moment he starts acting stupid, the dog not the boy, mild correction and redirection."

QUOTE: However, Kaz has been increasingly klutzy and getting the leash tangled around his feet when tethered to us or the front door. So we tried using it more as a drag line (it's a light 1/2 inch nylon). That's when he started wanting to jump up on, herd, nip at, etc. our son. Even tugging him off DS using the the leash with a firm no and redirection he continues to try to jump up again. So Kaz ends up being put back in the crate to separate them so Kaz can chill and I can comfort DS. END

Using it as a drag line is not working. Back to tethering.

Truly, whether it sounds harsh or not, the fact is that the puppy is scaring and hurting the baby. They need to be separated unless a parent is on the end of the tether, and jumping up isn't corrected -- it's just not allowed.

I know that we can give more day-to-day details if needed (like old-style wooden playpens, for example, and dog x-pens --- all with the constant presence of the parent, of course), and I hope that Danity will ask. Because I agree that now is the time to get the routine firmly in place.

Again, no one is trying to be harsh. This is not a topic to tippy-toe around.

And questions are welcomed! Everyone here wants the same thing: safe and unafraid baby and puppy.

Lois, I was stating a fact. Not trying to make her feel bad about her situation. It is what it is. Many pups that show up in shelters are around 1 - 1 1/2 years old. This is when the 'puppy behavior' isn't cute anymore & the dog becomes a real problem. The pup most likely has the child outweighed already & can do real harm it it jumps up & knocks the child down. I am glad that she is looking for help for all their sakes. But there is no a quick fix to training. Managing the environment is the answer until reliable training is established.

Danity, Have you read the articles here about pack leadership? There is a dvd also on this. Have you tried marker training with this pup? If not, I would suggest that you read some of the articles(& get the DVD if you can) on this site about it. It is the best way to train a pup. It is fun for the pup & they look forward to training time with this method. The pup can be trained for an 'off' & 'leave it' command & will be happy to comply when he knows that a tasty treat is comeing his way when he does. Redirect the dog to a toy that he can bite & chew when he gets mouthy. I would not allow him out with your son until you get some good training on the pup where he is listening to you. You do need to have time to work consistantly with the pup & multiple short training sessions a day (5 min or so)is far more effective then one 15- 20 min session a day.

Ty and I both work with him throughout the day/evening. Usually 5-10 minutes at a time. He still needs work with proofing as he is easily distracted if one of the kids comes in the kitchen while we are training. I just stop and make him repeat it.

We do have a clicker and have read on clicker training and I have watched some training by Karen Pryor. However, we've had to put it off because the kids want to play with it, and them clicking just to click will be confusing to Kaz. Perhaps we could work on it while DS is napping, though.

Unfortunately, the next set of obedience classes aren't until January and he will be over 6 months old. It will be a basic obedience class and will allow him to test for the CGC test, but we will likely hold off on that until after advanced obedience. Waiting til obedience class isn't an option which is why I spent countless hours reading on this site and a couple others because we truly wanted to be prepared and do things right from the get go instead of trying to fix bad habits.

My apologies for the 'tude, but that is how your posts came across originally. I don't expect rainbows and sunshine, but practical, helpful tips are much appreciated.

 Quote: connie sutherland

 Quote: connie sutherland

and jumping up isn't corrected -- it's just not allowed.
Even tethered, he will still jump up on me, DD and DS. So I tug the leash down quickly and firmly, with a "no!". If he does it and it isn't allowed, doesn't it have to be corrected to keep it from happening again? How do you just not allow something other than just keeping them locked in the crate 24/7? They have to be outside of that box to learn, right?

I know that we can give more day-to-day details if needed (like old-style wooden playpens, for example, and dog x-pens --- all with the constant presence of the parent, of course), and I hope that Danity will ask. Because I agree that now is the time to get the routine firmly in place.
I do have a baby gate at the top of the stairs to give the cat an escape from the dog barking at it (Kaz hates it if we give the cat any kind of attention).
Again, no one is trying to be harsh. This is not a topic to tippy-toe around. Agreed, but it did come across as 'tude.

And questions are welcomed! Everyone here wants the same thing: safe and unafraid baby and puppy.

Edited by Danity Siebenale (11/03/2009 09:58 PM)
Edit reason: color change for my responses

Danity
I have a similar situation here, finally added a pup to our family of 4 (ages 13-3). Just a thought, when we first brought Ember home my older kids would often want to start playing rough and wrestling around with each other and with the puppy, who then tried to play that way with the little kids. I quickly had to resort to a zero tolerance of that sort of behavior both with the kids and the pup.
best wishes

I'd probably make the clicker "a grownup thing" and not have it lying around, because of the ages of the kids. Not that it's a big deal or a dangerous item -- not at all --- but for the reasons you stated: too confusing for the puppy.

I would load the marker and start. Tell us how much you know. Do you know how to load the clicker (make the association clear for the dog between it and the reward)?

Fun sessions -- even two minutes (in fact, BETTER if it's short and sweet!) -- are the way to go.

I would absolutely not put off upbeat and fun ob work until January.

Any chance of getting the marker video?

Do you have an old wooden playpen? Or an x-pen? These are ways to separate puppy and baby (with parent present!) with a little loosening of the tether (stil tethered, but maybe the parent can look at something besides the dog if there is that wooden separation between them).

The tether or leash must be used to keep the puppy from jumping on the baby -- AWAY from the baby -- not to correct afterwards. If used the first way, there is no fear for the baby (of being knocked over or chewed on by a creature his own size.... ).

Separating when in doubt really is the way to go. If there is no parent hand right on that tether or no sturdy fence that the baby cannot get right up close to and the dog cannot get over, then they can't be together. JMHO. It's the wrong age (in both cases) to rely on either one of them in something so crucial to follow verbal direction.