Brock, this is just a guess here but maybe your dog is having some trouble with establishing a
pack order. He sees you as leader, but imagines he's #2, guests #3, etc. He has to learn that
all human surpass him in rank.

I've never had this problem, so take my opinion with a grain of salt, lol...What I would do is put the dog in a down/stay for the duration of the visit, but SECURED, so he couldn't go far.
When he gets up and barks give him a good "No".
I personaly would forget the scruff shakes too.
(dogs love attention, lol) You can redirect to the down/stay without encouraging further interest
in your guest. Hopefully soon....Have fun <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hello Cynthia-

Thanks for posting. You may be close to the mark with the pack order hypothesis. Ben (the dog) definitely had/has that dynamic with his female owner (we share custody with her keeping him 1 or 2 nights per week). On my leash he walks at heel or behind me and is generally relaxed: with her, he's way out in front, head on a swivel, ears moving all over the place, looking to pre-empt the next "threat", which in Manhattan is 10x per block. I definitely think he thinks he's charged with keeping her "safe" and that's she's delta or gamma to his beta! (bemused eyes rolling).

Had not thought about pack order as it pertains to this issue, but indeed you may have somethin there.

Simon, I'm gonna give you a totally bitchin' member review!

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ok, here is a guaranteed fix. You're lucky I'm posting to a lame obedience thread, so be sure to come back on the board and kiss MY butt when you've cured your doggy problem in a few training sessions.


If your dog does something you don't like, you PRONG THE EVERLIVING HELL OUT OF THEM! If that doesn't work, you didn't prong them hard enough! Do it again! This time don't be a little girl about it, prong 'em like you have a pair. . .


Just kidding. . .

Hold dog on a leash 20' back from the door. Someone rings the bell or knocks, opens the door, doesn't look at the dog, tosses a treat on the floor by the dog, and leaves.

Repeat a bunch of times - knock, walk in, toss treat, turn around, and leave. Pretty soon the dog isn't barking or even 'alerting' to the bell or knock, he's just a Pavlov dog waiting for the food. Progress to dog being closer to door, and having helper come in and sit down, toss treat to dog without eye contact, over and over. Get up, toss treat and leave. Get up, toss treat, walk towards door, toss treat, etc etc etc. Have different people do it.

Pretty soon, the visitor is just a CS for food and the dog forgets about trying to control his behavior or being nervous. You'll actually rewire the dog's little pea brain.

Desensitization/counterconditioning probably would be a good starting point. Another way to go about it would be to have doggy go to place, then when (actually, right before) visitor stands up to leave, treattreattreattreattreattreattreattreat.....so that doggy stays in position on mat/bed getting yummies nonstop the entire time the person gets up to put on their shoes, up until they actually walk out the door. Once the door is closed behind the visitor, the treats cease immediately. Over time, frequecy of treats is decreased as doggy learns to be calm and relaxed when visitor gets up to leave. Same thing, slightly different approach.

One of the biggest differences is that the dog does not learn to approach strangers for treats, but rather, looks to the owner for cues. One of the potential drawbacks of teaching doggy that the treats come from strangers is that doggy can get in very close proximity to a stranger (looking for food) and end up over their head, in a situation they can't handle (if the stranger does something to spook the dog), and have a negative emotional reaction *in close proximity to the visitor*, which can set desensitization back light years. This is why some people prefer for the food to come from the handler rather than the stranger.

Just something to think about. Both ways would probably work fine in this instance since it seems to be the movement to leave that is the trigger. If the dog had multiple triggers, then it might be better to use my option since people are really hard to control and they will often do things that make some dogs upset. Much easier to teach the dog to tune in to the handler and look for guidance whenever something happens that makes them uncomfortable than to desensitize them to each and every little thing.

Nah, nevermind. . .I changed my mind. Go with my first set of advice, prong the dog into oblivion.


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Van Camp,

So is it treat the dog or prong the dog? Why so ambigious on a serious issue? Not every one knows the motivations behind your emoticons.

Thank you for blessing us with your advice, great one.

Brock, please don't use the prong on Ben at this point. I know on other posts I've advocated their
use, but all situations deserve to be looked at
individually. I think it's premature to assume it will work here.

Correct me if I'm wrong (I think I remember a previous post of yours) you haven't had Ben all that long? He was obtained from a shelter, he's around 3 or 4...he needs love and security
right now, so work on the bonding first.

The reason I was concerned about his view of the
rank order was because you stated he gives
'kisses' to the guest after his outburts. Dominant
dogs control the movements of submissives. I thought he may be 'rewarding' the guest with a kiss because the guest didn't move. Just my own theory, but it could be true. That was why I
suggested the down/stay- to squash those ideas.
There's still room for treats in this picture,
but only if he earns them- on the 'down'.

RVC-you made one person's day, anyway...I laughed so hard I almost hurt myself...still laughing...

Brock,
Sounds like we have the same dog, almost.

My dog is fine with people as long as they sit down in the chair offered, don't make any sudden moves, don't laugh too hard, and don't touch ANYthing. And you're allowed to walk around, provided you are behind me, and your head is down with no eye contact with any family member. And don't think about opening any doors, or going to the fridge to get a beer. You are in her mind stealing something, or thinking about it. Yeah, makes HER the life of the party. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

My dog has serious territorial issues tho, but this is how I helped her (and myself,lol). I pretty much did a desensitization routine, as Lisa and VanCamp outlined above. That helped some of it, but I was still stuck with her suspicion of people in the house (and with people approaching on the street). I gave her a 'say hello' command, and a place command, and use both. If I think the people are too chaotic, or they don't understand dog behaviour, then I crate her. She always drags a leash, and is on what I call 'parol obedience' when people are over, which means, I know you want to get out of line, but I am in control, so don't even think about it, even tho we are in the house. It works well, and her behaviour around strangers has improved dramatically; she is still very suspicious of strangers, but the say hello command tells her I am in control, and this person can come into our social space. She is not so uptight about people in general. However, this dog needs a very strong, clear leader. Any ambiguity or hesitency, she will decide there is a power vacumn, and the 'beta' rules go into effect. So I am very careful. This has not decreased her 'watchdog' capabilities.

Perhaps Ben thinks that the shoes are now your property, and the thieves are looting the den! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, desensitization and obedience training are the way to go.

Chris,
I could be mistaken, but I would interpret that last comment as VC indicating that he does not wish to engage in further discussion. I wouldn't read anymore into it than that.

Melissa,
I like your approach of combining desensitization with obedience. Having a "say hello" ("make friends", whatever) cue is a way that the dog can greet the visitor, but it is under your control. I think often, too much freedom in deciding whether or not or when or how to engage in social interaction is what can get some dogs into trouble. And just by being in his downstay while the visitors are present, he knows what he is expected to do and can relax and simply observe and get some further desensitization simply by being in the presence of guests but not having to interact with them. But, I think some desensitization work needs to happen before the dog can get to this point, if the dog is nervous enough about company in the first place; expecting compliance to obedience commands when the dog is freaked out can often serve to increase the dog's level of arousal, so getting the dog calm first so that he can then learn the obedience part is really important.

Sounds like you've done a great job.