 Re: Teaching "stay" using markers
[Re: Bob Scott ]
#264743 - 02/08/2010 06:06 PM |
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LOL Bob,
Now I remember why I went to edit my post. I got to the edit and couldn't for the life of me think of why I thought about editing!
I guess that's what I get for listening to Tom Waits albums for the last few days.
Any ways, I wanted to say how redundant a stay command is, and it's uselessness in the large scheme of things.
Building a bridge to the release is where I think she needs to start moving her training was my primary point.
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Re: Teaching "stay" using markers
[Re: Bob Scott ]
#264744 - 02/08/2010 06:13 PM |
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That works BUT you can create a dog that starts sniffing and looking all over the floor/ground for treats. 
Edited to say this is in reference to a post about tossing food between the dogs feet in the down.
It does require a certain level of marksmanship on the trainer's part  I made it work for me, it's just to teach the dog what you want then you polish it up later
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Re: Teaching "stay" using markers
[Re: Dennis Jones ]
#347440 - 10/21/2011 12:38 AM |
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what does building a bridge mean?
thank you ..... gene s.
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Kelly wrote 10/21/2011 09:06 AM
Re: Teaching "stay" using markers
[Re: gene stricklin ]
#347452 - 10/21/2011 09:06 AM |
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Bridgeing is used when you want duration in an exercise. It's to let the dog know that what he is doing is right, but the exercise isn't over yet. Michael Ellis uses the word "good".
So for a stay, you put the dog in position (sit or down) and say "good" while he stays in position. When the dog has stayed for the length of time you wanted, release him with his release word (Michale Ellis uses "YES") and give him his reward. That lets him know that the exercise is done.
I highly recommend the Marker DVD as it explains EVERYTHING about marker training. http://leerburg.com/219.htm
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Re: Teaching "stay" using markers
[Re: Kelly ]
#347466 - 10/21/2011 11:30 AM |
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Technically, a bridge is called a bridge because it 'bridges the gap between the time the behavior was performed, and the reward was delivered.'
In order for a dog to associate the behavior with a reward (thus want to repeat the behavior), the reward has to be delivered within one second of the behavior. What the bridge does ("Yes," or "Good") is allow us more time to get the reward to the dog, and the dog still knows exactly what behavior is being reinforced.
You really need to get "The Power of Training Your Dog With Food." That will explain Good vs. Yes etc.
A really good book on this that you can buy from Leerburg is Excel-erated Learning by Pamela Reid.
Until you understand the system better, it will be difficult to teach a complicated behavior like 'stay.' Stay is hard because your asking you're dog to ignore all of it's impulses.
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Re: Teaching "stay" using markers
[Re: Lisa Brazeau ]
#347468 - 10/21/2011 12:12 PM |
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Do I have this right....
In AKC type training the 'stay' command is taught and that is when the dog learns I stay when told stay otherwise I can move about.
Other styles of training uses 'bridges' that stay is the expectation without the actual command of 'stay' until the dog is released? The end result is that you say sit and the dog will sit until released?
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Re: Teaching "stay" using markers
[Re: randy allen ]
#347469 - 10/21/2011 12:13 PM |
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Randy, do you play Schutzhund?
Schutzhunders often think Stay is redunant. However, in Schutzhund you're not allowed to give a stay command, so that philosophy roots in the rule book.
I teach STAY and WAIT.
Stay = Stay there, in the position I put you, until I return and heel you out.
Wait= Wait there, in the position I put you, and something else will happen (Recall, Attack, Jump etc)
Using 'STAY' helps dissipate any anticipation in the dog under this system because I ALWAYS come back and then heel away. Using stay and wait interchangebly confuses the dog and they will often break because of anticipation.
I have rock solid stays on my dogs - Laya was in her sit-stay for the Open class at an AKC event when a wiley Giant Schnauzer broke his stay and jumped all over her. She never moved a muscle, and we got first place that run. 
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Re: Teaching "stay" using markers
[Re: Lisa Brazeau ]
#347472 - 10/21/2011 12:41 PM |
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... You really need to get "The Power of Training Your Dog With Food." That will explain Good vs. Yes etc. .... Until you understand the system better, it will be difficult to teach a complicated behavior like 'stay.' Stay is hard because your asking you're dog to ignore all of it's impulses.
I agree completely with Kelly and Lisa.
The basics first.
http://leerburg.com/219.htm if new to markers, followed by http://leerburg.com/220.htm
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Re: Teaching "stay" using markers
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#347473 - 10/21/2011 12:41 PM |
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Most of this thread is pretty old.
It was Bob who said : The stay command isn't even necessary once the dog starts understanding the commands. ... AKC uses the stay command. Schutzhund doesn't. When I do AKC competition I just use a simple hand signal to "stay" the dog and that's only for the judges benefit.
No problem with answering the posts from February of 2010, but the writers of the new posts are probably the ones following the thread.
I know it gets confusing when a new question is tacked onto an old thread.
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Re: Teaching "stay" using markers
[Re: aimee pochron ]
#347475 - 10/21/2011 12:52 PM |
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Do I have this right....
In AKC type training the 'stay' command is taught and that is when the dog learns I stay when told stay ..... Other styles of training uses 'bridges' that stay is the expectation without the actual command of 'stay' until the dog is released? The end result is that you say sit and the dog will sit until released?
I think your question mixes up competition venues and training systems. Marker training (with terminal and intermediate bridges) is used by trainers in many venues. Bob was saying, I believe, that even though AKC uses "stay," his training doesn't. He adds it for AKC strictly for the judge.
Lisa, OTOH, does train the stay command.
I don't. To me, the dog is in the commanded position until the TB is given.
Lisa, does this explanation (or "sort-out") sound right, or just more confusing?
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