Ed wrote a good intro to poison proofing article.
Different goal, but the process is the same.

Notice that he starts up close so that the dog has the chance to make the connection between the object and the correction.

Dogs don't generalize well.

http://leerburg.com/poison.htm

 Quote: barbara schuler

 Quote: rob abel

As soon as your dog starts to follow the scent trail, turn him temporarily into a Christmas Tree. His thought? Man, even the SMELL of a porcupine hurts my neck.

I have to admit, as I stepped away from the computer to pop a cake in the oven, the more I thought about this, the more it bothered me. The vast majority of folks on this forum who elect to use an e-collar do so with the utmost of respect for the dog and with the appreciation that the collar is a tool - not something to ever be used as punishment or "to light him up like a Christmas tree". I don't know you Rob, so I don't mean to be rude, but I'm more concerned with the OP getting the impression that anyone on this forum would be comfortable with abusing an ecollar.

My choice of wording was poor. I didn't mean to treat the e-collar training so frivously and I absolutely do not abuse or condone abusing animals ever.

The process for teaching aversion involves temporary pain in direct association with a dangerous smell to create avoidance. I live in snake country. I'd rather expose my dogs to 2 seconds of temporary shock than a rattlesnake bite that can be fatal.

I've had no takers on another thread on a birddog forum about "porcupine avoidance training" so I suspect it isn't done much - I suspect it's too hard to get porcupines to use as training assistants. Perhaps Ed's "poison training" will apply - I look forward to reading it.

My "christmas tree" comment was inflammatory and I understand the reactions it caused.

My complaint isn't the use of the e-collar.

Its using it in a situation where the dog has no logical way to associate the correction with his behavior.

 Quote: alyssa myracle

That's incredibly unfair, and unlikely to work.
Its hard to get a dog to associate a smell with something, especially at a distance.

If it was easy, it wouldn't be so damned hard to teach them to track, detect specific substances, etc.

About the only thing the dog is liable to learn from that experience, in the manner you describe, is that life is scary and punishments come out of nowhere, for nothing at all.

Training like this would probably be better accomplished by starting up close, and working out- not starting a long way away and punishing the dog for air scenting.

Live animals give out powerful odors and can be detected from great distances. Bird dogs regularly detect birds at 50+ yards. You are underestimating the dogs scenting ability.

However, as for the training, my comments were not appropriate and I retract them. In particular the "christmas tree" comment was unnecessary.

I would, however, refer you to the snake aversion experts who serve a valuable function, allowing dogs to spend many more weeks afield doing the activities they love in the areas in which they love to do them. If you are unwilling to train your dog to avoid snakes, then you should avoid the areas snakes inhabit during the seasons they inhabit them.

Same with porcupines I guess. You either avoid the risk by keeping your dog away from areas porcupines inhabit, assume the risk and take pliers along with you to the field, or attempt to train your dog to avoid them, as was the original, and in my opinion, responsible question.

I don't encounter porcupines in AZ, but have had dogs snake trained and no, the dogs do not view the world as a "scary" place as a result of the snake aversion training. Indeed, from my observations, the dogs are THRILLED that they get to go out even more. I have never seen a single negative behavior in my dogs as a result of the snake aversion training. The dogs avoid snakes by smell, and as a result they are safe in the desert.

 Quote: alyssa myracle

My complaint isn't the use of the e-collar.

Its using it in a situation where the dog has no logical way to associate the correction with his behavior.

The "behavior" is the dog getting too close to the snake or porcupine. The dog gets too close and he gets a surge on the e-collar which, when repeated a time or two, is logically associated with proximity to "that smell." Dog's (and humans, for that matter) memory for smells is the most powerful of all memory traces. They connect it and they remember. It doesn't take long, and in most dogs never even needs repeated. They get it.

I just read Ed's "Poising proofing" article and agree that it's well written, and agree with his method and philosophy. The luxury with food/poison is access to the materials which allows you to take more time in training. Most folks don't own snakes or porkies, so the training is done more in one shot sessions, with future booster sessions if the handler observes the dog approaching the wrong critters in the field at some future point. Usually, it's the dogs with the over-the-top prey drive that need the boosters. Here in AZ, it's the professional bird-dog trainers that do the snake training. Honestly, I've never been right there with the my dog at the snake encounter. I don't want to be associated with the snake or the e-correction. But I do make sure I fully understand the methods and approach the trainer will use with my baby.

 Quote: rob abel

 Quote: barbara schuler

 Quote: rob abel

As soon as your dog starts to follow the scent trail, turn him temporarily into a Christmas Tree. His thought? Man, even the SMELL of a porcupine hurts my neck.

I have to admit, as I stepped away from the computer to pop a cake in the oven, the more I thought about this, the more it bothered me. The vast majority of folks on this forum who elect to use an e-collar do so with the utmost of respect for the dog and with the appreciation that the collar is a tool - not something to ever be used as punishment or "to light him up like a Christmas tree". I don't know you Rob, so I don't mean to be rude, but I'm more concerned with the OP getting the impression that anyone on this forum would be comfortable with abusing an ecollar.

My choice of wording was poor. I didn't mean to treat the e-collar training so frivously and I absolutely do not abuse or condone abusing animals ever.

The process for teaching aversion involves temporary pain in direct association with a dangerous smell to create avoidance. I live in snake country. I'd rather expose my dogs to 2 seconds of temporary shock than a rattlesnake bite that can be fatal.

My "christmas tree" comment was inflammatory and I understand the reactions it caused.

Not a problem; I've "misspoke" once or twice myself... ahem, ahem... I agree that I'd much rather expose any dog to momentary shock than anything permanent or serious, and an ecollar can be great in that ability. However, it is very important that the dog understand it is getting shocked for the behavior you are trying to correct/avoid/train. I am not sure, but I know the more experienced folks will know, whether something as "vague" in the ability to target - such as smell, can be trained to "not go there". Hypothetically, I can imagine a dog being given three containers to smell - treats, porcupine and chocolate (that one is for me)... He smells the treats, no nick, the chocolate, no nick, smell the porcupine container and NICK - that, I could see working. But out in the field when the dog is exposed to so many variables, such as running on a rock, etc... I don't see how zapping him for odor would translate ONLY into that particular smell.

In any case, I appreciate the fact that you simply overstated how you would go about training this.

 Quote: Barbara Schuler

I don't see how zapping him for odor would translate ONLY into that particular smell.

Thanks for your understanding. The snake training starts with a dog on a check cord approaching too closely to a snake, the snake rattling and causing a ruckus, and the dog getting a strong e-correction. The next step is again approaching the snake (from downwind) until the trainer knows the dog has caught the sent from his body language, followed by a second (then third if necessary but I'm told most dogs don't want much more...). The snake's scent is so powerful and unique, with the memory of the first encounter apparently so vivid (and yes, associated), that most dogs never need to go back.

This is field training, not scent in a bottle. My descriptions earlier weren't very clear in this area either. There is actually alot more to the experience for the dog than JUST scent, but it's the scent of snakes that he learns to avoid.

In retrospect, this is not a topic that lends itself to a simple comment in a discussion forum. I missed the golden opportunity to keep my mouth (keyboard) shut

 Quote: rob abel

I missed the golden opportunity to keep my mouth (keyboard) shut

LOL! Oh, I've REALLY been there before... I'm going to remember that... "a golden opportunity to keep my mouth shut"

Back to porcupines. Kiersten, sorry to have led your thread on a walk in the woods.

Here are the only two responses I've gotten on the other forum. Most of these folks train their own dogs. I don't have any better feeling about whether there are pro trainers that have porcupines for training. It seems there would be in areas that have high concentrations, but...

Anyway, here were the responses:

"Of course most dogs get OJT (on the job training). Smart dogs get quilled once and never get near a porkie again. However some dogs are so prey driven that they will tangle with porkies more than once or tangle with one porkie so much that you have to take them to a vet to be sedated for quill removal. I normally carry a leatherman when hunting so I have a pliers handy for removing quills myself"

and

"I don't use a live one, but with a young dog I find a dead one on the road and use that to train the pup. I just throw it in the weeds and walk him by downwind. When he investigates, I use the e-collar on him. From then on, it's "on the job training". There are some dogs though that just never learn. I had an old setter once I must have pulled 1000 quills out of. He hated porky's and would try to kill everyone he found. I got pretty good with my Leatherman."

"Smart dogs get quilled once...never again"
I would disagree there. My experience is that many dogs seem to think,
"NEXT time I meet one of those I am going to REALLY murder it..." Some dogs were quilled over, and over and over again.
I think training to avoid them would be a great idea. Quills in eyelids, tongue - some were just gruesome.