What I do with long downs ( say at the kitchen door while doing dishes ). I say platz and once platz is done, I say good boy and walk away. Do one dish and sa good boy while still doing the dish and take a small piece of bread and drop it between his front legs, walk away do an other two dishes repeat. Now it has gotten to the point where I can say platz, then a good boy for doing platz and a few good boys inbetween tahn do all my dishes and reward finally with a few pieces of bread before I say , lets go. If he breaks the platz , I used to just say No and take him back to the same spot and say platz again.

So I did not use any word for duration except a few good boys sprinkled here and there , I just went and rewarded in place and walked back and went in again etc. Slowly the frequency of rewards are reduced.

Reward here is food. For GOOD it can´t really be a toy as it doesn´t end the behaviour.

What I meant was when do you pay (with a treat) after a GOOD?

In training with food it doesn´t happen much (or at all- don´t remember it all as I havent watched that one today. Yet ) but defenately does in the marker DVD. It isn´t actually for holding one position but for a position change (like sit from stand)- she gives the command (for instance SIT), the dog sits, she says GOOD and gives the dog a treat and then gives another command. And she rewards Rush with a treat for long down, goes to him and heels a little distance to do the sendaway.

To teach the dog the *meaning* of good, absolutely, reward with food.

Like any other food reward, though, the end goal should be to randomize the delivery.

Ok, that clarifies it up. I think

I am rewatching all of the DVDs, this time taking notes (I have a mush brain and some of my training mates have asked me to explain the system- they are envious of my happy puppy that doesn´t run off into the sunset that dachshunds are supposed to do ) and getting new questions. It is surprising how much more you notice when you note stuff on paper!

Thanks to all for your replies!

Here's a late follow up question regarding duration and rewards:

When I'm training a new command, often times I will use old commands to assist in the process (say using "come" to get him off the mat when training the "mat" command). Sometimes I would use verbal praise ("good" or "good boy") for him complying with the old command instead of a food reward. I haven't worked on duration yet, but when I do start... would it still be ok to use "good" as a bridge word or would that confuse the dog and hence I should pick a totally new bridge word? Thanks.

 Quote: simon tai

Here's a late follow up question regarding duration and rewards:

When I'm training a new command, often times I will use old commands to assist in the process (say using "come" to get him off the mat when training the "mat" command). Sometimes I would use verbal praise ("good" or "good boy") for him complying with the old command instead of a food reward. I haven't worked on duration yet, but when I do start... would it still be ok to use "good" as a bridge word or would that confuse the dog and hence I should pick a totally new bridge word? Thanks.

Are you asking us if "good" would be a good intermediate bridge? (Terminal Bridge, or marker, is "Done! And done right!" and IB is more like "So far so good; keep going ....")

EIther way, no, for me, not in this case, because you are using "good" as common praise .... I choose as verbal marker and intermediate bridge words that I do not tend to use in everyday dog-conversation. For me, it's "yes" and "good" (but I don't use either one in non-marker situations).

And no, I don't indicate the end of a command into which we're increasing duration by giving another (old) command. I build in duration by holding off (very gradually) on the TB, or the marker.

That marker means both "Done! And done right!" (for me). It means the command is over. So I have incrementally lengthened the time between the dog's correct positioning, (say, maybe, "down") and the time when he's done being "down" by incrementally lengthening the time before I give that marker that has "done!" built into it.

A way to encourage the dog and retain focus during the increase of duration is to use an intermediate bridge. That's the part you're asking about, right?

Just making sure. I feel slow-witted today.

Simon,

Not sure if I understood your post correctly, are you giving the dog a "stay on mat" command, release with marker, then give the dog a "come" command to get the reward?

I am sure the most experienced folks will chime in, but when I taught my dog touch pads, at the beginning, I was standing next to her and the pad. When she gets her paws on the pad, I released her with her marker, then move my hand (with treat) away from her so she had to step off the pad to get her reward. Once she understood that she could step off the pad when she heard the marker, I slowly increased the distance between her and I (and the pads), so I could release her from a distance.



Edited by Melissa Hau (10/27/2010 03:20 PM)
Edit reason: Didn't finish the last part

My 7 mo Bichon decided on her own to start duration when I put down her food bowl before she charges for it. She is a true chow hound. I worked on it with her awhile back with no success. All of the sudden she decides she must look at me for permission to charge the bowl. So I've used this development to keep her gaze a little longer (and sometimes shorter) before giving her the cue to eat (which is "go"). She's now decided "go" is okay, but even better to wait until I start to walk away. She is training me well.

Connie and Melissa, you both are right.. in that my post was unclear and confusing. Let me try again having already read your responses.

When I train new commands, I always use the TB/marker "yes" to signify "done and done right". So when training "mat" (not a mat stay but louie will often sit/lay and stay on the mat anyways even after the mark/reward), if he stays on the mat, I'll issue the "come" (old command) to get him off the mat and switch between using verbal praise (good/good boy and a pet) and mark/food reward.

Questions:

1a. I want to train for Louie to go to his mat and remain there until I release. Would using the existing "mat" command and trying to build duration ok? I was thinking of doing it that way and using an intermediate bridge in the process.

1b. Connie you said I should use a different IB that I don't use in non training purposes. Do I need to charge the IB somehow? If not, how will the dog know that it's the IB and not sure random word he has no association with?

2. Do you think my using of an old command ("come") during new command training is detrimental to his learning/confusing him?

Thanks!

"When I train new commands, I always use the TB/marker "yes" to signify "done and done right". So when training "mat" (not a mat stay but louie will often sit/lay and stay on the mat anyways even after the mark/reward), if he stays on the mat, I'll issue the "come" (old command) to get him off the mat and switch between using verbal praise (good/good boy and a pet) and mark/food reward.

Questions:

1a. I want to train for Louie to go to his mat and remain there until I release. Would using the existing "mat" command and trying to build duration ok? I was thinking of doing it that way and using an intermediate bridge in the process.

Yes.

1b. Connie you said I should use a different IB that I don't use in non training purposes. Do I need to charge the IB somehow? If not, how will the dog know that it's the IB and not sure random word he has no association with?

Well, the IB for me is a rapid but calm repetition of a sound (more a sound than a word, but this certainly varies from trainer to trainer -- see links below). I use "good" but it's repeated so rapidly that it's much more of a sound, and many folks just use a sound. Maybe "ch ch ch ch" or "g g g g g" .... think of "hot and cold" and how you urge on the person by saying over and over "warm warm warm warm" and then in this case any sudden stopping of that indicates that the dog has gone "cold" and needs to do something else to get back to "warm."

I like a sound that can be low and lips-not-moving, more of an engine sound than an ignition key.

This is hard to explain!

I also don't use an IB until the dog is really really solid on the command without it. And I first use it very close to the dog with full focus on the dog (like a team!) and not as a distance reinforcer until the dog is totally clear on that sound being an indicator of "warm warm warm"!

I think that IBs are open to individual interpretation (can you tell? ) and I will be very interested to hear others' takes on them.

2. Do you think my using of an old command ("come") during new command training is detrimental to his learning/confusing him?"

Yes, if you mean using it to release him from the new command. Because I want the dog to perceive that the marker is the release. The marker is always the release. After the marker is given, the dog can do whatever he wants .... the command is over. Before the marker is given, the command keeps happening.

So you see that by tiny increments of time increases before giving the marker, I can start to introduce duration without an IB. When I have started these tiny increments, I also vary them. I might mark the minute he does the action or maybe 4 seconds later and then back to the minute he does it (instantly) and then 2 seconds ... But I never increase duration any more than I already have until I see that we're solid on the last step.

I don't know if this is clarifying or confusing.

Here's more:

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=279413
and
http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=262744