Quote: Jeremy Clements

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=44215931

Found it here. I will warn you though, Its hard to watch. But worth it.

I want to thank you for posting this link Jeremy. I have never seen this before. It was worth watching, but how appalling at the same time.
I am forever changed by watching this, but so truly sad.
Thank you for enlightening me.

 Quote: anne jones

And of course to those in 'the know' this is called improving the breed. I think that I am going to puke!
They will say ANYTHING to justify what they are doing to ruin the breed. The STANDARD...my ass! Most of those poor dogs are totally crippled by the time they are 4 or 5. That is the mentality of the AKC show people. Stuck on stupid. And we all know that you can't fix stupid.

OK, maybe I am just touchy this morning but here it goes ;-)There are plenty of threads on pedigree dogs exposed on this board and I guess I will refer others to my responses on those threads in regards to this video series.

But if Anne and others are referring also to the video I supplied in regards to "AKC show people" (of which I count myself one of those "stupid" people) I believe all the pictures of dogs are VA German showline dogs so the AKC breeders are pretty not involved with that.

I posted this video just as an interesting retrospective view of the breed but in hindsight I guess it also shows that that *some* breeders - be they involved in the AKC or other countries - can change a breed for the worse. Individuals who show in the AKC don't have the market cornered on that. Taking a wide brush stance and labeling everyone as stupid that is involved conformation does nothing but generalize and alienate.

I have no problem with conformation shows Ingrid. I think that working dogs should meet the breed standard. In the case of the GSD I think the breed standard should come from Max v Stephanitz. But overall I do think that breeds should meet their physical standards as well as their temperament standards. Those together are what make them a breed.

I in no way wanted to call all show people stupid. A Malinois breeder I know also shows and champions her dogs in AKC conformation. I actually respect her more as a breeder because I know she is trying to preserve the whole Malinois. Her Mals also end up as sport dogs and police k9s.

I agree Katie with what you are saying :-) My biggest irritant is the greek chorus of AKC conformation ruins breeds. No, breeders ruin breeds and if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem in my opinion. Speaking of all breeds - think only junk is shown in conformation? Well, get out there and show your working dogs in the breed ring, get involved with the AKC breed club, be an example of what the breed's potential is, encourage programs that reward dogs for being sound, versatile workers. I sure as heck do in my breed.

Are changes going to happen overnight? Absolutely not! But it has to start somewhere. People like to say that they won't waste their time swimming upstream by getting involved with AKC groups but that to me is like voting in my opinion - if you don't vote, you don't have the right to complain about the state of our country ;-) If the working and sound dogs are not out there being shown in AKC events and the breeders of said dogs don't get involved with AKC groups, than nothing is ever going to change.

Whew, I think I have vented enough on the subject! Pretty sure I will be down to two stars by the end of today :-p

Well said, Ingrid. Well said. Now I might lose some stars too

Ingrid, I was referring to the unethical breeders that are breeding dogs to show standards that are turning out cripplingly deformed dogs. Also dogs that have known health issues used to breed because they meet the breed 'standards' for their breed. And I am not talking about puppy mill breeders, but 'respectable' breeders. These people are egomaniacs & money grubbers in my book.

I should have been more specific & also stated UKC not just the AKC. I will also add that not all breeders that show their dogs fall into this group. But to show in these venues you have meet the kennel club standards, which in many instances are not in the best interest of the breeds for the long haul. There is & always will be a very distinct line between dogs bred to be shown & those bred to work (do the job that they were originally intended to do) in many of the breeds. Many of these older breeds can no longer do these jobs due to the 'standards' that they are being bred to today. These breeders are not bettering the breeds they are ruining many of the breeds that they claim to have 'improved'. It's like the flavor of the month. What is acceptable today, color,head shape, leg angulation, muzzle length, leg length etc etc, is no longer the acceptable standard next year. The GSD, & the bull dog are only a couple examples of many that have fallen into this catagory.

It was not my intent to ruffle feathers here, just stating the facts as I see them. Maybe stupid was too strong of a word. But I don't think that you can call these kinds of breeders smart & then see the results of their bad breeding & what it has done to the breeds.

That's definitely right, but I don't think the working dog should stop being shown. If enough people see enough of the beautiful, soundly structured and minded GSD, they might soon begin to realize what these "respectable" show breeders are truly doing to the breed.

Or maybe I just have high hopes.

 Quote: anne jones

Ingrid, I was referring to the unethical breeders that are breeding dogs to show standards that are turning out cripplingly deformed dogs.

The standards are not what is at issue. What is at issue is breeding towards what wins in the ring. I agree that is a huge issue. I also think that is why healthy working dogs need to be shown in the show venues - be they AKC/KC, Sieger, and other venues that focus on structure over working ability.

 Quote:

Also dogs that have known health issues used to breed because they meet the breed 'standards' for their breed. And I am not talking about puppy mill breeders, but 'respectable' breeders. These people are egomaniacs & money grubbers in my book.

Yeah, and so do some working breeders. There are breeders out there that will say health be damned as long as the dog can work and let's be honest the conformation world does not corner the market on egomaniacs and money grubbers - plenty of egomaniacs in the working dog world and check out the prices on some of the dogs out there from working kennels.

 Quote:

I should have been more specific & also stated UKC not just the AKC. I will also add that not all breeders that show their dogs fall into this group. But to show in these venues you have meet the kennel club standards, which in many instances are not in the best interest of the breeds for the long haul.

This is not a standard issue - it is how the standard is interpreted. I show my working ACDs in the breed ring - finish them as well so they not only meet the standard but can work as well. Speaking specifically of the GSD, I think Linda Shaw says it best when she stated:

"The standard for the German Shepherd Dog, while annoyingly vague in many respects, has not changed appreciably over the years. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of the breed. From the 1940's, when most dogs in most countries looked pretty much the same, we now have West German show, West German working, East German, Czechoslovakian, English Alsation, American show and probably others yet in the making. Partly this is due to a natural, genetic diversification of families, and is probably a good thing. Related dogs tend to look alike. Partly it's due to legitimate differences in breeders' preferences. Working line breeders, for instance, will tend to put less emphasis on movement than on drive. But in many cases it's just ignorance of what correct conformation is all about. The short legs and long bodies of the Alsation were simply not efficient. Neither are the extreme rear angulation and sloping toplines of American show dogs, nor the roached backlines of West German show dogs. These faults have never been acceptable under the standard, but somehow they became fashionable in their respective countries and have been promoted by "big" breeders and judges alike." See http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/12_Type_Comparison/Comparison_Types.html

 Quote:

There is & always will be a very distinct line between dogs bred to be shown & those bred to work (do the job that they were originally intended to do) in many of the breeds. Many of these older breeds can no longer do these jobs due to the 'standards' that they are being bred to today. These breeders are not bettering the breeds they are ruining many of the breeds that they claim to have 'improved'. It's like the flavor of the month. What is acceptable today, color,head shape, leg angulation, muzzle length, leg length etc etc, is no longer the acceptable standard next year. The GSD, & the bull dog are only a couple examples of many that have fallen into this catagory.

I wholeheartedly agree with most of this. Don't get me started on bulldogs - if a breed can't breed naturally or whelp naturally, in my opinion, mother nature is telling you that breed should be extinct. And lest you think that I believe that the american showline GSD is wonderful - I don't. I cringe when I see them. With that said I also cringe at the banana back on many german showlines and the straight fronts etc on working lines of various breeds. My point is not one type of breeder has cornered the market on breeding for money and not for sound structure, correct temperment, and health issues.... Additionally, I again blame the breeders for allowing splits in their breeds. I will fight to the bitter end to ensure that my breed maintains it working ability and structure within ONE breed club as it is right now.

 Quote:

It was not my intent to ruffle feathers here, just stating the facts as I see them. Maybe stupid was too strong of a word. But I don't think that you can call these kinds of breeders smart & then see the results of their bad breeding & what it has done to the breeds.

My issue was not necessarily with calling breeders who breed for money above all as "stupid". It was the inference that all AKC breed ring people are stupid. I completely agree that too many breeders are egotistical and money-grubbers. I see this in my breed. This, and I believe people rush into breeding WAYYY too soon after getting involved with a breed. Hell, I am going to be pushing 15 years in my breed when I finally get a litter on the ground (hopefully!) next year. I just believe that this is not an issue limited to breed ring people nor are all the people who show in the breed ring fall under this category

Anne, I am not meaning to pick on you - I think we agree on much more than we disagree I just think it is an easy out to blame standards and the people who exhibit in the breed ring solely for the failings of a breed.

Ingrid, EVERY breed would be fortunate to have someone like yourself working, breeding and showing their dogs.

 Quote: Barbara Schuler

Ingrid, EVERY breed would be fortunate to have someone like yourself working, breeding and showing their dogs.

Thanks Barbara! I am flattered that you think so. Although I have to admit I tend to be an outspoken and opinionated PITA so I am not always beloved by all :-p