Talk about deja vu.... The Front and Finish list right now is on its annual debate over pure positive training versus those that use prongs and electric. Someone mentioned that kikopup youtube person in a message and of course Susan Garrett is being often mentioned.

I just delete the emails now. Honestly if someone wants to use only a clicker in their training I have no problem. Bully for them. However, I the rant that one should not use other training tools such as prongs and electric gets old. Particularly when it generally is coming from individuals who have never attained a title higher than a CD or CDX when it comes to competitive obedience.

Edited to add: I just went and checked out kikopup AKA Emily Larlham. I had to roll my eyes at this comment on her website:

"My friend and co organizer of the SD Canine Freestylers is in a competition of the best dog trainer in San Diego! I did not enter because last year there were so many shock collar franchises in the competition that I thought it would be traumatic for me. PLEASE vote for Pam to promote POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT TRAINING to help make humane and the most effective training the new trend in san diego! Go Pam! You are brave!!!!" Emphasis added

 Quote: ingrid rosenquist

... " I did not enter because last year there were so many shock collar franchises in the competition that I thought it would be traumatic for me.... "

A wise decision. It's a mess when the handlers are fainting on the field.

 Quote:

yet everytime I post a video of my "broken spirited" dog working with me we it's all "why doesn't my dog do that?"

The proof is in the pudding...

You want to see how life works with purely positive motivation and no corrections and consiquences?.............
Go to any restaurant or school and watch the generations that grew up like that. The proof is in the pudding.

 Quote:

"My friend and co organizer of the SD Canine Freestylers is in a competition of the best dog trainer in San Diego! I did not enter because last year there were so many shock collar franchises in the competition that I thought it would be traumatic for me. PLEASE vote for Pam to promote POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT TRAINING to help make humane and the most effective training the new trend in san diego! Go Pam! You are brave!!!!" Emphasis added

I just spit coffee all over my screen. ROFL

What a brave, brave woman..

It's the nut cases like those mentioned above that give marker training a bad name and scare off some trainers that believe in corrections when warranted. I know because I thought about marker (aka clicker) training this way until I read Ed's way of using it.

I second that observation . . . as a retired teacher and current private instructor of violin/viola I KNOW that corrections are a MUST. And, those who don't get corrections decrease their potential level of performance.

I've been off the board for a while (out of town), but now I'm back I have to respond to this.
I'm a Brit, have not lived there for a while but still go to visit family and friends quite often.
If you actually saw the amount of badly behaved dogs, and ill informed owners over there you wouldn't question whether you were right or not.)
If my dogs are well behaved, happy, healthy and respond to me in a positive way then I believe I must be doing something right. I do use prongs on my dogs and I advocate the use of prongs (in the correct way) every time I go back to the UK, but I have to admit there are so many 'do gooders' as I call them over there that only want to listen to their own voice and don't care to do the research or listen to another opinion....the unfortunate part is that they seem to shout the loudest so get more attention paid to them!

I am English, born and bred, I also use prongs on the boerboels, and check chains, and as soon as I have the cash in the bank I am going to be getting e-collars, my trainer told me that I can use the prongs in a one-on-one situation because the rest of the people won't like it and may get abusive, not in a group environment, I could care less, but that is how far the uninformed have taken the whole 'cruelty' debate, I would rather have confidence and control over a combined weight of nearly 30 stone of dogs when I am confronted by people letting their dogs run up on their flexi leads to 'play' with mine.

In Wales, the e-collar has been banned, things are going too far in the opposite direction now, and the Kennel Club still exersise a lot of influence over the average pet owner through misguided ideas about a training tool that used properly can work wonders.

We are a nation of animal lovers, we have the Royal Society For The Protection Of Animals, and yet only a 'Society' for the protection of children!

As for Victoria Stilwell, she is a bit of a twit, and proper dog people don't take her seriously, most of us don't really believe that all the behavioural problems dogs exhibit can be solved with treats and rattles, and the majority of people that work their dogs I know, are down to earth people who love their dogs, but always keep at the front of their mind, they are a dog, not a child and not a china doll, and very few of them would need advice from Victoria Stilwell, or any other so called authority on dogs, infact, I would doubt most have heard of her, or give a toss what she thinks anyway! We are on the whole very un-politically correct, and tend to shun the touchy - feely - healing thoughts type of folk, we prefer straight talking, honesty anyday, to dressed up, think carefully before you speak type of people, and that is why I come on this board, and not Victoria Stilwells!

Regards
Tracey

Regards
Tracey












Tracey

Don't know what is going on with all the salutations at the end??!! I have't had a Gin and Tonic yet either!