I agree with Randy on this quite a bit. A co ownership with breeding rights back to the original breeder is essentially a foster system. For instance in this relationship what rights do you have? Can you spay the dog if it's not up to snuff? (quite possible in a young puppy) Can you put the dog to sleep if there was ever a need without their permission? Do you get any say in what the dog is bred to? Do you or the breeder pay for health testing and vet care? Who foots the bill and who benefits? If you campaign this dog does the breeder cover any of the entry fees from which they benefit? Will this dog under this system ever become 100% your dog?

I guess in my eyes if a co ownership was the only method with a breeder to a full reg dog I'd simply look elsewhere. Why? Well because I like my life simple and one does not need look far on the net to find examples of co ownerships that have gone horridly wrong. Within my own breed I can think of about six contested unhappy co ownerships in the small circle of people I do know several of which are public and nasty.

Good luck with whatever you decide on.

I phoned my breeder today and set up a time on Wednesday that we could talk at length. I have my list of questions and some extra ones that this conversation has made me think of. I'll let you know what's going on after my conversation on Wednesday.

I may also decide to wait until I have the time to properly start an 8 week old puppy and purchase one outright although that may not be until the middle of next year. I would definitely like to stay with this breeder. Her dogs (the temperment especially), her ethics and way of doing business is all what I am looking for in a breeder.

 Quote: Debbie Martin

I'm just thinking about the unfixed part because these will be large dogs, 150 to 200 lb range.

Off-topic Debbie, but what breed are they?

I also agree with Randy and Melissa. If you are to take this dog, but the breeder still has right whenever they choose, I would say that they should be responsible for at least the cost of the veterinary care for him/her. Not to be harsh, but essentially you are providing free, off-site, 24 hour care/love/training for one of their breeding stock. Plus, food (as I'm sure you know) for a dog that large is expensive.
Of course, you are also getting a dog out of the deal... but it's not really *your* dog.
Also, what happens any time you have to go to the vet for an unforeseen issue? Who decides what route to take in an emergency?
I don't mean to be a downer, these are just things that come instantly to mind.
Just out of curiosity, does your breeder often have to get c-sections done? Always something to consider with a larger breed, and there can be complications.
Deciding how to care for your own dog is hard enough, I see couples fighting over decisions all the time at the vet clinic. Unless you are totally confident in your breeder's ability to make those choices for your dog, I think it might be a difficult thing to hand over that responsibility - especially if the dog is ill... and she's the one paying.

 Quote: Lynne Barrows

Off-topic Debbie, but what breed are they?

I'm guessing American Mastiff, based on threads on her previous dog, Sierra.

~Natalya

Yes, you're right Natalya; American Mastiff.

Phaedra, My breeder has only had to do one cesarian in the past three years. I don't know about before I knew about her. THese are some of the questions we will be discussing on Wednesday.

Phaedra makes excellent points about arguments over health care decisions. Also, liability (in health care) needs to be discussed. What if, in either of your hands,
someone makes a bone-head mistake? Dog drinks antifreeze, for example.

In cattle, co-ownership is common. The understanding here is that cattle die, and farmers make mistakes. All parties contribute to insurance for the animal, and agree to a "hold blameless" policy, at least in name.

People still get pissed off, however.

I finally had a chance to talk to my breeder. I made one major decision before I called her; I want a female not a male.

OPTION 1: Take the 5 month old she kept back as a possiblity for her breeding program as a "lease". I pay the basic bills; vaccinations (already done), flea/tick/heartworm meds, food etc. Anything out of the ordinary or more than basic normal care, the breeder would pay for. There would be a contract setting out exactly what I would be responsible for. Dog goes for preliminary testing at 12 months. If she doesn't pass, I have the option to buy her at 1/2 price.

OPTION 2: Take 2 year old female that has had one litter and will be having one more litter next year. "Lease" under the same terms and buy for 1/2 price after she has her litter next year.

OPTION 3: There will be puppies born in January from a female I really like. Because I can't take time off work and my boyfriend is not back from his job overseas yet, the puppy would stay with the breeder until the first week in March and would be 12 weeks old when I got her. The breeder said she will keep the puppy for the extra month and continue the socialization, basic training (sit, down etc),crate training, housebreaking etc for me. I know she does a wonderful job with this.

OPTION 4: Wait until August/September next year to get a young puppy.

I'm leaning towards option 3 but I'm not sure how crucial the bonding period is weeks 8-12. Is there anything else I should be wary of in getting a puppy at 12 weeks compared to getting her at 8 weeks?

Personally, I would go with option 4, but I am a control freak with my animals, so the other options wouldn’t work for me. I provide for all the care of the animals. I like it this way. IMO, 8-12 weeks is a crucial time in proper socialization, crate training, house breaking, feeding. Yes, your breeder does a great job at this, but it wouldn’t be your way. I would want to start a daily routine ,asap, that meets the puppy’s needs and still flows with my schedule.

Oh yeah, and missing out on 4 weeks of cute!

Here's what I think, which will really open a can of worms: if you are the person who had a dog die at 6 mos of age of a spinal cord tumor -- if that is you ---
I think you went thru hell with your last pup, I think your breeder owes you a new one. Free.
If that happened to a pup I bred, I'd give you the pick of the next litter. No strings attached. I'd be really flattered if you were willing to try my line again.
Just my opinion.