Quote: jennifer mullen

Now I'm wondering if there's anything to him getting even little bits of human food. When we backpack, I let the dogs have any leftovers (it's a fast and easy way to clean up, everyone's happy)....Luc has a gut of iron, but perhaps even that - while not fatty - was upsetting to his tummy? He was out of sorts on the Sunday of the Halloween weekend backpack, and he would've had a small amount of the human dinner the night before. Nothing substantial though. Hmmm.

The terrier correlation is interesting, we think his dad was a terrier of some sort.
I can't remember to draw correlations for the other time he did the little pukes.

"Human food" meaning what?

Acute pancreatitis in dogs (like what we will now see popping up from Thursday through New Year's, called "holiday pancreatitis" by many vets) is most likely to be related to cooked or rancid fatty foods. That's why gravy and stuffing and the like, stolen from the table or trash, can be dangerous.

Lots of cooked fat (or rancid fat) is very often the common factor.

What he had on Halloween would've been a small amount (less than a human serving) of rice, veggies, chick peas and some thai red curry sauce (quite mild). And next day for lunch he was allowed to lick my bowl which had the remnants of ground flax seed, milk powder, and dehydrated berries (mixed with water). We're not talking large amounts at all though - in both cases, Neb is in essence functioning as a dishwasher and just cleaning off the gunk on the pot/bowl.

I can't think of any cooked fat he would've gotten. We don't eat super-fatty foods ourselves and them licking the bowls of the sauce remains doesn't seem like it would be a huge trigger. I will now of course strictly enforce this and given how earth-shattering Neb being sick was for Toby, I don't think I'll have trouble getting him to go along (I do have trouble convincing Toby on other dog-related matters sometimes).

Could the kibble have gone off? Wouldn't Luc get sick then? Maybe not necessarily?

That, or could the meat blood catcher thing have turned rancid? I haven't seen it in his poop but since it's not blocking things up I think it would be passed by now? Again, the vets weren't really concerned about it - they asked questions, but it wasn't a big deal for them.

He's not obese, like I said, but a couple of lbs over where I'd like him to be - he weighed 34lbs on Thursday and I prefer him at around 32lbs, but as long as he's not over 35lb I generally don't worry too much.
(You can see his body condition kind of here: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=7286866&l=d2ba6ad356&id=630190844 - he does have a defined tuck from above and if he turns to the side or rises up you can see at least 3 ribs, though not normally, as he has tonnes of skin)

....all of this seems too small individually to cause pancreatitis, but maybe taken together in a dog prone to it?

While I'd be horrified if it was pancreatitis, I kind of would like it to be as well. I have a call in to see what the tests run were exactly.

Well, as you know, I'm not a health professional.

I have had some experience with dogs having pancreatitis and I ended up researching it pretty thoroughly. Even though diet is so often the trigger for acute pancreatitis (and again, hence the uptick in so-called holiday pancreatitis every year), none of that sounds anything like what I have seen/read/heard as trigger foods. Dogs get things like a turkey carcass loaded with buttery stuffing, or they eat a pecan pie, or they eat rancid sun-heated days'-old roadkill .... not what you are talking about. What you are talking about -- these are all things that I would have no qualms about allowing my dogs to eat. (Maybe not the curry sauce, but it sure doesn't sound like the cause of an acute-pancreatitis attack.)

However, as you too have read, pancreatitis has other triggers.

acute pancreatitis; elevation of serum amylase (2-3 x normal)
also lipase
THose are the classics.
These are excreted by the kidney, so if the kidney function is good, and these numbers are up, then acute pancreatitis is suspected.

Blood sugar is often high, as are blood lipids.
They are often hypocalcemic (low blood Ca)

I can't remember any more!

 Quote: Betty Landercasp

acute pancreatitis; elevation of serum amylase (2-3 x normal)
also lipase
THose are the classics.
These are excreted by the kidney, so if the kidney function is good, and these numbers are up, then acute pancreatitis is suspected.

Yes, many vets still do start with these enzymes. But it has turned out that it's not just a low specificity problem with them -- which you address with the kidney mention -- but also that they have low sensitivity. (This is a recent finding -- maybe a few years max.)

QUOTE

Amylase and lipase

The activity of serum amylase and lipase can be measured; however, these enzymes do not originate exclusively from the pancreas.4 The main sources of serum amylase include the pancreas, liver, and small intestine. Several forms of lipase exist (pancreatic lipase, colipase, and lipoprotein lipase) but the pancreas and gastric mucosa are the only known sources.7 Regardless of origin, the overall function of amylase and lipase remains the same, meaning that elevations in enzyme activity do not necessarily indicate pancreatic dysfunction .4 In the past, these enzymes were used to diagnose canine pancreatitis; however, amylase and lipase have recently been shown to have low sensitivity (62% and 73%, respectively) and specificity (57% and 55%, respectively).4 In one study regarding the utility of amylase and lipase in the diagnosis of feline pancreatitis, no significant difference was found in the serum amylase and lipase activities between cats with acute pancreatitis, cats sick with non-pancreatic disease, and healthy control cats.8 Additionally, amylase and lipase can be increased in nonpancreatic diseases such as renal disease (decreased clearance) and gastrointestinal disease. In dogs, corticosteroid administration can cause significant increases in serum lipase.3,7 Because the level of enzyme activity is not specific to the pancreas, serum amylase and lipase activities are now considered to be of very little value in the diagnosis of pancreatitis in dogs or cats. END from http://www.vet.uga.edu/VPP/CLERK/west/index.php



I had forgotten about hypocalcemia (and I don't really understand the mechanism; way over my head), but now that you mention it, something like half of dogs with acute pancreatitis have hypocalcemia.

They tested for pancreatitis with blood AND cPLI, which as far as I know is pretty definitive.

So no pancreatitis.

Sigh, that it would be so simple. That's twice now I've been disappointed it wasn't that!

So I guess that leaves Neb with liver disease or toxic ingestion.

A liver shunt doesn't make sense in that he doesn't fit the profile - he's not runty or underweight, for instance - liver disease makes me nervous. He's still so young.

I wish it was an easy diagnosis

For what it's worth.... my dogs have gotten several of those meat liners as well as the styrofoam itself with no ill effects.

 Quote: jennifer mullen

An accumulation of copper - ?

I'm giving this pause because just a few days ago I learned that a friend had an old St. Bernard with this "copper storage" liver problem (copper storage hepatopathy) - never heard of it before then, but running through Neb's symptoms, it could be something to check out. For my friend's Saint, once they diagnosed it, a combination of meds and diet change managed the issue for them.
http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/endocrine/c_multi_copper_storage_hepatopathy

I'm SO sorry you're going through - we're still in the midst of mysterious sick dog land over here, so I completely sympathize with you!! Hopefully you'll get some answers soon so you can plan treatment/recovery accordingly.

Our best to you and Neb,
~Natalya