If you accept their basic premise {which I don't} that all dogs with aggression issues have them because the behavior has been reinforced, then their use of aversives is abusive.

You are arbitrarily {to the dog's mind} punishing it for a behavior which has previously been reinforced.

This is not the same as no longer reinforcing a previously reinforced behavior, or requesting a different {learned} behavior and correcting for non-compliance with that request.

Instead, you are taking a dog who,
1) Is likely already in a state of distress,
2) Is not thinking clearly, and
3) Isn't entirely convinced of your reliability or trustworthiness,

and you are subjecting that dog to a complete paradigm shift with zero context available to them.

Corrections without context available to the dog, are abuse.

IMHO.

{The exception would be where a physical correction is necessary to prevent imminent physical harm. Imminent physical harm isn't possible in this proposition because you are beginning at a distance and in fact moving CLOSER, which implies that the distance was sufficient enough to remove risk of harm in the first place.}

Edited by Aaron Myracle (04/05/2011 08:26 AM)
Edit reason: to add caveat.

huh. what about a dog that is overly territorial/protective? my dog was diagnosed as "fear aggressive" but i am starting to believe the behaviorist we went to see, just diagnoses all the dogs the same way.

while i agree it doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to take a fear aggressive dog closer and closer to the thing it fears, it also doesn't make sense to take him/her away from it either, where in my mind the dog would then see that barking/lunging, etc will make the person remove the dog from the situation which would be what they want. in order for that dog to gain trust, wouldn't it make sense to show that dog, that even though you are moving closer and closer, you aren't going to let that thing he/she fears hurt him/her?

it don't know, it seems a tricky situation way. but, what if you are taking the fear aggressive dog closer and closer to the thing it fears while feeding it yummy hot dogs the whole time. i think the trainers i have worked with tell me this is how they do it because then the dog will associate it's fear with yummy things and positive things.

when my dog sees other dogs, i have a point where i was throwing treats on the ground, so as to sort of distract her as they walk by. my dog NOW, when sees a dog (from far enough away - as i said we still can't get too close), will automatically start looking at the ground or at me for treats instead of reacting.

my dog would bark and lunge at motorcycles when i first got her. she still does if they are those super loud crotch rocket types. but for the most part if we see one, she will look at it and then immediately turn to look back at me for a treat.

this is the goal i think we are trying to achieve here as we get closer and closer.

re: the harnesses, i don't min using a harness. i have tried martingales, chokes, harnesses, regular leashes, head halters, etc. the head halters seem to make my dog more agitated. the chokes do as well, plus she has a fragile neck, so i prefer the harness.

edit: i will also add, i don't normally "correct" my dog. if i do, it's just to pick her up when we are in a really bad situation, and she HATES that. she will know then that she has done wrong.

but for the most part, if she "reacts" do another dog, i keep walking, and once we are past them, she will look at me for a treat, and she doesn't get one.

The dog-trainer friend I mentioned above doesn't use CAT as described by Aaron. She uses a variety of methods, dependent on the root of the aggression. Her class makes a big difference for a lot of dogs.

That being said, I realize not every trainer or every class can be judged the same. However, I wouldn't throw the idea of a reactive dog class out completely. Rather, I'd probably sit in on a few classes if possible to see if you feel it would be helpful for your dog.

Depending on the type of harness, they restrict motion and breathing, and are notorious for causing rashes/injuries to the soft tissue underneath the armpit.

Territorial and protective are two different things, and I would extend that further and say that by territorial you actually mean resource guarding. These are pack structure issues, and are more related to your interactions with your dog than your dog's interaction with its environment.

Before I even began exposing a dog with those issues to aggression triggering stimuli, I'd be implementing some pretty significant changes to the way I lived with my dog and some pretty strict enforcement of NILIF.

If the dog is acting aggressively out of territorial or resource-guarding motives, they are making an informed choice. If given an alternate, learned and proofed command they choose to disregard, a correction is an appropriate response.
____


Re: Allowing the dog to disregard a command {"if she "reacts" do another dog, i keep walking"} and then failing to reinforce the command once it has been performed {"she will look at me for a treat, and she doesn't get one."} is counterproductive. You have created zero parameters for behavior.

You're teaching the dog *both* that commands are really just requests, and that reinforcement is inconsistent and likely not worth the effort when the non-compliance permits a behavior that is more consistently rewarding.

I think thats a good attitude to have, Konnie. Personaly, I will continue my search for a trainer who uses truly balanced training methods. Someone who isn't fudementaly against corrections, and also doesnt blow off desensitizing as being stupid. Hopefully I will be able to someday take my dog through group obedience classes for proofing.

Jenn, I think that is a big part of the problem. So many dogs display aggression in a very mixed way, and sometimes its a matter of context. Thats why its so important to find a trainer who is really good.

I know my dog is very territorial, the proximity to the house or the car has a big effect on the outcome of running into another dog. On walks sometimes the display actualy is simple frustration, but other times it is a real challenge to the other dog that she might be willing to back up.

Thats why its such a debate with trainers.

Lauren, yes it makes it very difficult not knowing EXACTLY why she is displaying aggression. sometimes she seems like it's just territorial, sometimes she seems legitimately afraid. for instance, she will have a similar reaction (lunging barking, screaming) to a vacuum cleaner that she will to a dog, and i'm pretty sure she is *afraid* of the vacuum cleaner.

i think it's really a mix of territorial and fear, but it's so hard to tell. out of the 5 or 6 trainers i've worked with one on one, a couple of them said it was fear, and a couple said it was being territorial. so it's like, how do you really know?

You don't.
You assume both and treat both.

 Quote: Aaron Myracle

You don't.
You assume both and treat both.

Exactamundo.

My frustration is more about finding someone with an open mind who is willing to tap into more than one school of thought to help. It doesn't really matter what the exact cause is, but for some dogs using only desensitizing or only corrections may not get you to where you want to be.

Aaron, why do you and Connie have to be all the way on the other side of the country? I'd happily pay either one of you.

Luanne and I decided to try the "reactive dog" class after all. Our first session was TERRIBLE! she was the worst one there, was super stressed, and could not calm down one bit. i thought... oh god what did i do?

then we went again last night, and she was like a completely different dog. the dog's still have not seen eachother. they are all still behind barriers, and this is how it will be for the first few classes. we only try to get them to be calm while in the new environment, and while they sense (hear/smell) the other dogs.

Luanne did quite wonderful last night, always eyes on me while i clicked and treated. so.. i am hoping this means the class will actually help us rather than hurt us!

will post updates here in case anyone is interested!

 Quote: lauren jeffery

This thread made me curious, so I googled "growl class" to see what came up. A lot of the sites mentioned Constructional Aggression Treatment, anybody have any idea what that is?

I tried to look more into it, but I couldnt find anything that detailed this technique in plain language. The results were very confusing.

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=331336#Post331336

The head halter or harness request is a giant red flag. I wouldn't go to this class but I've seen some well run reactive dog classes. I've also seen way too many that rely entirely on flooding.