In my opinion when a dog is in drive the "down" command is more absolute and clear to the dog as compared to the recall. When my dog is at the brink of control the "down" command is much much more effective.

Recall is fine but the dog has to first quit what he is doing then turn around and come towards handler, whereas the down just drops him in mid activity now the recall or reward can be used. Maybe worth a try?

 Quote: faisal khan

In my opinion when a dog is in drive the "down" command is more absolute and clear to the dog as compared to the recall. When my dog is at the brink of control the "down" command is much much more effective.

Recall is fine but the dog has to first quit what he is doing then turn around and come towards handler, whereas the down just drops him in mid activity now the recall or reward can be used. Maybe worth a try?

I think it is DEFINITELY worth a try! Thanks for the suggestion Faisal.

 Quote: barbara schuler

 Quote: faisal khan

In my opinion when a dog is in drive the "down" command is more absolute and clear to the dog as compared to the recall. When my dog is at the brink of control the "down" command is much much more effective.

Recall is fine but the dog has to first quit what he is doing then turn around and come towards handler, whereas the down just drops him in mid activity now the recall or reward can be used. Maybe worth a try?

I think it is DEFINITELY worth a try! Thanks for the suggestion Faisal.

As terrible as it is, now I want to get Koenig in a state of mind where I think he'll blow off a command-I'm going to try it too Faisal! THANKS!!!!! I think our recall is stronger now though. When I ask for a down he tends to turn, come back 5' or so, and then down. (It's obviously a command he's not proofed on for distance work.) But, still, worth a try! Great idea!

In the book "DOGS" by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger they talk abut a series of events in a wolf making a kill.
Orient-eye-stalk-chase-grab/bite-kill/bite.
With changes done through domestication this is the same thing that happens when our dogs take off after a critter.
The earlier in the sequence you stop the behavior, the easier it will be to control the dog.
"IF" you going to set up the dog for correction don't wait for the full out chase. correct when the dog first orients on the prey.
By the time the dog is in full out chase you may very well have lost control.

 Quote: Kelly Byrd

When I ask for a down he tends to turn, come back 5' or so, and then down.

Herein lies the issue, you ASK, you do not TELL. When you tell the dog to do something and it does not get done within 1 second, the sky falls down, otherwise the dog learns that he can turn around, walk a bit and then comply as you are only asking. Off course corrections are only used after the dog knows the command 100%.

I did not word that well... I don't ask. I tell. I might be a novice in SchH, but I'm not a total newbie to dogs/training. That said... we marker train, and use motivational methods as much as possible!

OT. Sorry Barbara! (Look, 3 A's!!!)

 Quote: bob scott

In the book "DOGS" by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger they talk abut a series of events in a wolf making a kill.
Orient-eye-stalk-chase-grab/bite-kill/bite.
With changes done through domestication this is the same thing that happens when our dogs take off after a critter.
The earlier in the sequence you stop the behavior, the easier it will be to control the dog.
"IF" you going to set up the dog for correction don't wait for the full out chase. correct when the dog first orients on the prey.
By the time the dog is in full out chase you may very well have lost control.

Bobb, I agree with you' and have no problem with Falcon's recall when I catch him in the orient-eye-start to stalk phase... He will either "wait" if given that command or will come if called. The other morning I completely missed the fact that there was a critter in the yard and he was in full chase when I realized what had happened. If this were to happen again, and he does have his ecollar on and I blow it again by not catching him early enough, and he blows me off in full chase mode, what would you recommend? Thanks.

 Quote: barbara schuler

 Quote: bob scott

In the book "DOGS" by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger they talk abut a series of events in a wolf making a kill.
Orient-eye-stalk-chase-grab/bite-kill/bite.
With changes done through domestication this is the same thing that happens when our dogs take off after a critter.
The earlier in the sequence you stop the behavior, the easier it will be to control the dog.
"IF" you going to set up the dog for correction don't wait for the full out chase. correct when the dog first orients on the prey.
By the time the dog is in full out chase you may very well have lost control.

Bobb, I agree with you' and have no problem with Falcon's recall when I catch him in the orient-eye-start to stalk phase... He will either "wait" if given that command or will come if called. The other morning I completely missed the fact that there was a critter in the yard and he was in full chase when I realized what had happened. If this were to happen again, and he does have his ecollar on and I blow it again by not catching him early enough, and he blows me off in full chase mode, what would you recommend? Thanks.

Easy call!
Without consistency the best methods can't hold up.
If you know this is a possibility I don't think you can allow the dog off lead or at least without a long line or e-collar if "your" inconsistent in the training. At the VERY LEAST, don't take your eyes off the dog if the situation is a possibility.
Every "Come" or "Get back here" a dog ignores just reinforces that it can.
The fact that the dog now has a history of critter chasing means you start from the get go. Work on recalls! Add low level distraction! Add high level distraction as the dog improves.
High level reward for compliance! If you use correction, high level correction for non compliance.
Lastly, NEVER correct when the dog finally returns. In fact make a big deal out of it. IT RETURNED! That's a good thing and the last thing the dog did.
"Hi puppy"! "Glad you came back".
A dog's mind is in the here and now. Correction or reward is for the very last thing it did. NOT something it did one min or one hour ago.
Kick his butt when he returns and the dog will think a lot harder about returning next time.

See how simple it all is when Bob explains it?

My recall training is based a whole bunch on Words from Bob.

Big "WfB" for me was never to have the dog return to me, regardless of how slowly or imperfectly, to be corrected. And another was never to risk a recall if I have doubts. Back it up with a long line or don't do it until there are no doubts. Every time the dog blows it off, that teaches that it's optional.

Connie, you have to remember that old folks like me that sit back and talk a good talk doesn't mean I can actually do it.
Some folk believe you need to post moving pictures, even talkies, in order to prove your worth.
I heard that somewhere.