Let me say that I've never had a problem getting any of the dogs that I have had to come to me when I call them. Maybe I have some kind of goofy spiritual bond with my dogs or something(OK now I'm being stupid) but I swear to you, my dog KNOWS WHAT HE DID dosen't please me. However, I do pick my spots and some things, depending on the timing of it all, I just don't make a big deal out of.(Before someone pounces on that last sentence, I do practice consistancy!LOL) I maintain that I think they are smarter than we think they are. That being said...your probably right Todd. With someone who dosen't know what they are doing, this is a bad idea.

By the way, I dig that stuff you said about correcting before it happens. If possible of course.

Chuck, the not coming when called was not directed at you. It is a problem I have to fix about 20 times a week with people. Quit calling your dog to you to yell at it, or take something away and it might actually come. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I agree dogs are smarter than we give them credit for. They are the best people trainers there are. They can get us to do anything. Act goofy, talk funny...

However, I don't believe your dog knows what he did was wrong. Get a toy and do the same thing. Why would he act all sad. It is his toy. He didn't do anything wrong yet you get the same results.

Todd,

I definately respect your feelings on this.

I think if your argument was that the dog dosen't actually remember what he did, then I think that would be consistant. You have stated that "The dog dosen't know what he did was wrong." But if the dog remembers what he did, then why can't he be taught to remember that it is wrong to do what he did?

Does that make any sense?

Your last sentence about the toy and the dog's response is a good one. I'm not sure how to come back on that one. Give me some time and I'm sure I'll come up with something!LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Here is something to think about on this thread, in my case, it's not a dominace issue at all, it't a trained response to a unconditioned stimulius by association. He has learned then when I put my shoes on "unconditioned stimilus" work or play is soon to follow "unconditioned response" so he has associated shoes with fun and positive mental stimulation (his reward) so now he offers this behaviour out of the blue becasue he is seeking reward, and/or positive mental stimulation which he recieves by us laughing and egging him on.

I personally don't see a problem with this, at least in my case, but it is a great example of how easly dogs learn things without you even putting 2 and 2 togther that can turn sour if not watched carefully and corrected when it goes out of your bounds of what you want.

Like with my dog, I never take him out to work or play when he offers this behaviour wanting to go outside and work or play... this is always done on my terms not his, and if I am buisy when he does his "Look what I can do routine" I throw in a non response to his stimilus, counteracting my training so to speak, which in turn shuts it down, and he lays down and waits.

Neat stuff!

OK...my comeback. In that case, maybe the dog would think "boy that's f...ed up. He is scolding me for no reason...I thought it was OK to play with that."

Why would anyone do that? Of course the dog will react that way ANYTIME you scold him. I'm not sure that proves anything.

It took you that long and that was the best you could come up with? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

My point exactly...the dog will do that anytime you scold them. So if you get the same response whenever you scold, how do you actually know the dog 'remembers' and 'understands' what it did was wrong? Same response.

I ask people all the time what do you do when the dog does something you want it to do. 'Praise' good how do you praise. Petting. Ok, now the dog is afraid or acting agressive, what do you do. People immediately say I tell him NO. What else do you do...I reassure him. How? I pet him.

Again, how does the dog know the difference between something you want them to do and don't. If you pet them either time? Just an anology.

I think if a poor handler scolded their dog for bringing a toy over then yes...the dog would eventually not have a clue on how to differentiate between right and wrong. The other examples you gave are more subtle ones...things people do with good intentions that actually screw with the dogs head. It's definately a trained response. So yes...the dog responds that way ANYTIME you scold him. Then it comes down to a fair handler and the dog having the ability to learn what's OK and what isn't.

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I ask people all the time what do you do when the dog does something you want it to do. 'Praise' good how do you praise. Petting. Ok, now the dog is afraid or acting agressive, what do you do. People immediately say I tell him NO. What else do you do...I reassure him. How? I pet him.

Todd: I was under the impression when the dog stops the unwanted behaviour you are suppost to reward the new correct behaviour with praise...are you saying this is not so? I understand your point here, and I agree with it, but how do you get the dog to understand the redirected behaviour is what you want if not through praise such as petting for resopnding correctly to a correction/punishment? Or is it that the people you deal with have no concept of proper timing?

Take us to School Professor Gaster! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

It is definetly a trained response. BY JO I think he's got it.

Now take the trained response and go all the way back to the top of this thread. Dogs are great people trainers they can get us to do anything.

Anyway, I gotta get some work done.

Good luck all,