By the way, Bobbie, welcome aboard to a wonderful sport. It is very challenging, thought provoking and in the end, extremely rewarding. Enjoy it and watch out for the sharks.

Oh Heavens! Please dont be mistaken -

I really am "from the bushes" I've never had a dog in a show ring. They went to work with me every day (one at a time LOL) did such things as pick up dropped tools (I often worked in the rafters or on the roof) or sometimes bring me tools (the flashlight most often, under houses) and the rest of the time 'git to yer spot' which was watch the tools (it was pretty easy, my tools = dog's toys hence he's watch them) ... to be honest "show" to me has no importance at all except for breeding purposes, to verify that there's some "I am good at working with people" DNA in the background of a pup I'm getting or selling.

I dunno, I guess the thing that surprised me was I (being iggerant) assumed that a dog that wouldn't "out" readily would flunk :-) I know for sure I dont want to breed any like that.

Always
Bobbie

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I apologize as I dont have the time to read all these respones, so if this has been already said Im sorry.

My question is was the dogs overall score poor or just protection section?

Did you listen to the judges critique after as to why he/she scored the dog that way? You can learn a lot here.

My suggestion would be to stand next to someone who knows exactly (or close to it) what they are looking at at the next trial. Ask questions or for his to tell you what is happening.

Now my thoughts are:
At my first trial I thought the same things, how did that dog score the same as the dog before when he did everything wrong. A lot of mistakes are handler mistakes little things most people wouldnt notice yet the judge does. Points are taken away. Walked too many paces, oops points off, moved feet, ooops points off, etc. I believe the HNB is 5 points and if they dont bark they dont get the points. Thats a 95 right off the top, now add in all the actual mistakes and the score goes down further.
Hope this helps some, its hard without seeing it.
tracey

Sch3FH2:

Are you out there? Chime in.

Yup, I'm lurking out here! But I agree with most of what's already been said. The calm, obedient dog, while presenting the more responsive appearance to the newcomer, may have also had thin, weak grips or shown discomfort under the stick hits, behaviors which are heavily penalized, while the hyper dog only loses 3 pts for failing to out on the first command. Understanding the code of points is the only way to understand why one dog scored higher than another. That said, I do believe most of the folks in schutzhund view it as a sport to be enjoyed for its own sake, not as a "breed suitability test". Breeding shouldn't be done by the scorebook; you should evaluate the dog on its individual merits. Lord knows, my dogs have "V" Sch scores, but breedworthy??? Not hardly! But I'm in it solely for the enjoyment of training my dogs.

I agree that the breeding of sport dogs is changing in response to what the judges are rewarding in the trials. Now that "freight train" hits are commonplace in the courage test, nothing else will earn full points, but rarely are the hardest hitting dogs the ones with the strongest nerves and courage; more frequently, it is the prey monsters who are flying thru the helper with reckless abandon. It is a picture which has been created for the sake of the points, but it isn't a realistic test of the dog's nerves/courage.

Jeez, I never thought I'd learn so much just from one question, you all are wonderful. There looks like a whole lot of aspects and considerations involved with Sch - and I can now see the sense of evaluating prey drive / bite power and enthusiasm for the work so highly. I'm not so sure I agree with failure on 'out' to rate such a small loss of points - but hey, I dont have to agree with every rule in, say, gymnastics to enjoy, appreciate and learn from participating in the skill and the sport.

This I guess is the result of doing alot of "reading the service manual" and "studying the blueprint" but just beginning to get my hands dirty "rebuilding the clutch" ... And yeah, it makes sense that the sport took on a life of it's own - and is no longer considered an evaluation for breed-ability and working potential, though in some aspects a much looser correlation still exists (?)

 Quote:

Originally posted by Sch3FH2:
I agree that the breeding of sport dogs is changing in response to what the judges are rewarding in the trials. Now that "freight train" hits are commonplace in the courage test, nothing else will earn full points, but rarely are the hardest hitting dogs the ones with the strongest nerves and courage; more frequently, it is the prey monsters who are flying thru the helper with reckless abandon. It is a picture which has been created for the sake of the points, but it isn't a realistic test of the dog's nerves/courage.

Ahhhh... there's the thing. I just need to understand and accept this, and view "Sch, Sch, Sch" all over a pedigree with that consideration in mind - and look at the DOG. I'm still real invested in participating with our local Sch club. Regardless of some of my misgivings, it remains the most affordable and available resource of Dog-Knowlege and Handling, and the group I was lucky enuff to fall into are very welcoming and pleased to share thier knowlege. The positives FAR outweigh the drawbacks.

Thanx again
Bobbie

Hi Slowride!Just wanted to say I LOVE your screen name!!!!!!

OK, that said, have you seen Ed's tape of Bernhard Flinks?The tape is about drive, focus grip and motivational training.

If not, hurry up and do so!!! I bet you will be as impressed as I was, since I am a beginner too, and I am currently viewing the tape for the 1st time and it is so impressive I can only say to see it is to love it!!!!

Hello, I am a new member and I am reading all old posts here and I found one very interesting for me.
I am new to Schutzhund as well, at least to the Schutzhund in the USA. I did some equivalent of Schutzhund in Poland many years ago, but what I learned from here it was not real Schutzhund, it was just dog training. Very little attention was paid to points and everything we did had some practical application. Of course there was an exam in the end so there were also excercizes preparing for the exam, but they were not the only ones.
So my question is: is there a place in Schutzhund for less competitive people who just want to have a well trained dog and do not mind if the dogs looks in their eyes when heeling (I personally do not like it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> What if a lamppost is on the way?) For me obedience training is not enough, tracking and protection are USEFUL, too.
Ewa

 Quote:

So my question is: is there a place in Schutzhund for less competitive people who just want to have a well trained dog and do not mind if the dogs looks in their eyes when heeling (I personally do not like it [Smile] What if a lamppost is on the way?) For me obedience training is not enough, tracking and protection are USEFUL, too.
Ewa

Yes there is, you can always train at your local club and never trial....I have run into a few people that do this. Or you can train for a PPD instead of Sch, they both follow the same "basic" training styles.

As far as the lamp post, that is where the "Teamwork" comes in, your dog is to trust you not to lead him into a post. That is the true beuity of the heel I think. It's a command of not only OBD but of trust and focus/attentivness. The heel is my favorite command of all time, it feels so awsome when the dog does it perfectly hugging your leg with his body looking at you for guidence, following your every move with persision and accuracy... GOD it't great! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />