Jenny - thanks for your reply. I completely forgot that our dog trainer explained to us the "fear period". I think you are also right that we are not getting his clues before he bites. 95% of the time he is an absolute mush, I can take things out of his mouth, clean his ears, touch his feet, take away high value items, etc. without an issue. I definitely think this is the strange fear phase and we are pushing him past his point. I will do some further research and work with our trainer - she is great - for some exercises we can do to help him with fearful situations. I forget sometimes that he is still a puppy. Thanks again!

Muzzle him, and get it done if you're not willing to use the time tested approach of marker training.

Even is he IS a very hard dog, he's only 5 months old. At some point, he's going to have to learn that what you say goes- you can do that by pack structure work, and marker training, but it all takes time.

I agree with muzzling, if needed, but you might be surprised at how fast marking and rewarding may get you results... like even in one day.

Withhold his food - when he is hungry start your session with either his meal or something he likes better. Break his food into tiny pieces and the training into tiny steps, as was mentioned ( this is assuming you have loaded the mark -if not then do that with the first meal). Do the ears first. Calm quiet environment. I would be surprised if you couldn't get to the point of fondling and manipulating his ears in that first session. Do a bunch of short sessions on the first day, maybe 4 or 5. If he is really not responding, he's either not hungry enough or you're not taking small enough steps.
Seriously, try it! I challenge you! Lol!

Erica,
I never mentioned marker training, I don't even know what that means anymore. I show the dog what I want with food or the toy, when the dog knows what I'm asking and doesn't listen it gets corrected, that's my deal, keep it simple.

YOU said the dog was snarling and biting, to me THAT'S extreme. If it was me I would meet the bad behaviour with punishment, how much depends on the dog. I am NEVER going to let a dog of mine bite me or bare it's teeth at me in a serious manner, EVER! Rough play? absolutley, aggression, nope.

A video would help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jshsrGzlm5Q
Koenig getting his nails done today. It's no big deal if it's ....well.... kept simple, just as Al says!

I totally agree with Al. Snarling and biting is NOT ok. I happen to have a very 'talkative' dog, but he knows what line he's not allowed to cross.

 Quote: Kelly Byrd

Muzzle him, and get it done if you're not willing to use the time tested approach of marker training.

Even is he IS a very hard dog, he's only 5 months old. At some point, he's going to have to learn that what you say goes- you can do that by pack structure work, and marker training, but it all takes time.

I don't think I said I wasn't willing to try marker training - I think I said we are already using a marker method in other training and would definitely try it for his nails and the taping.

 Quote: Erika Hallberg

.... we are already using a marker method in other training and would definitely try it for his nails and the taping.

Here is a quick recap of my own "procedures" training method:

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=10&Number=281684&Searchpage=1&Main=26599&Words=procedures+Connie+Sutherland&topic=0&Search=true#Post281684

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=134&Number=289291&Searchpage=1&Main=27020&Words=procedures+Connie+Sutherland&topic=0&Search=true#Post289291


I posted in reply to someone else a couple of years ago, dealing with a procedure she had to do NOW and couldn't spend a few days on some marker/desensitizing combo work:

"Yes, to the little vet-type muzzle for now, but also, along with or after this protocol, I would map out a marker-training "procedures" training plan.

A week isn't really what I'd plan on for teaching a behavior that is very difficult for many dogs {this was about the dog sitting quietly during an in-his-face procedure} and that making it confrontation-free will give you and the dog (and your vet!) a better life. I don't mean to be dramatic, but I have never regretted this kind of work.

Many dogs freak out with ear, eye, and mouth (any part of the face and head) procedures.

You will pat yourself on the back forever for desensitizing the dog to such procedures."

It was just an option.

I had a terrible month long confrontation with my dog at 4-5 mos over the application of ringworm medication . There was a spot of bare skin below his eye ---he would growl and snap at my hand as I went to touch it with the ointment. I was able to complete the course of therapy and get the lesion healed, but our relationship suffered.

It took weeks of work afterwards to be able to touch his face. For a long time I could not put his collar on without a food treat. Etc.

Work on leadership, making him submit to little things, pick battles you can win.
About the face they are so fast, so much faster than you. I'd work on the nails, with food rewards. Get a step by step from Connie or others. Only after you have pack leadership down would I mess with ears, your face close to his. Or else muzzle him. I let it become a battle of wills between my dog and myself. That was a mistake!

Erika>> The reasons for a dog growling and snapping at it's owner is not very important once the growling has occurred. It is of extreme importance before the incident happens and all care must be taken to understand and avoid the negative experience. But once it has happened you MUST ACT. This can be done in two ways. 1) To correct the dog to let him know that it is absolutely unacceptable 2) Put on a hidden sleeve and bite proof gloves and let the problem escalate and let him bite and bite and realize that his biting has no effect on you. he bites and you calmly keep doing what you do.

Both are valid methods, the second being the best way to treat fear biting.


You mentioned that

 Quote: Erika Hallberg

Thank you, but none of these work when he is in this frame of mind. Either it doesn't affect him, or it makes him more upset. He is a very hard dog.

If he is a very hard dog at 5 months I am sure he is going to harden up as he matures.


When I try to do some thing that the dog does not approve of and the dog growls, bites and I back off, the dog learns a very important lesson. He can make the unpleasantness go away if he gets aggressive. If it happens a few times, the concept is reinforced.


If you feel that there is no level of correction that will make him submit, I would stop taping the ears. You should not make it into a daily sparring match and build up his stamina to confront.

Just my opinion.