Doyle-
Yes...stay with Schutzhund. Dont get a bad taste in your mouth for the sport over one bad experience.
Compulsion will be needed but not until much later...he is still a baby...all positive right now like myself and many others have said before. Also hang onto that prong as it is a great training tool for correction later. I think you should consider Cindy's idea...thats what I do.....my boy has his prong and e-coller on all the time regardless what is being done, as to not associate it with "bad" things. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Get Bernhard Flinks tape "Building drive focus and grip"....go to his seminars whenever possible. You will love this method and both your dog and you will have alot of fun...not to mention a great bond and no bad feelings.
Then even when he is old enough and ready for compulsion, Bernahard's drive-cumpulsion-drive will give you such a nice picture and great results and there will still be no bad feelings with your dog even though he has been corrected.
JMO
Pat

As it has been said before, stay with Schutzhund. Although not directly rewarded for positive training theory and practice, Schutzhund judges award dog teams for enthusiastic and happy obedience routines regularly; its written into the rules. AKC obedience, as I learned through experience, is purely a technically correct point system. The AKC trainers I knew at the time actually encourage a retrieval training technique using pain compliance involving the dogs ears and toes. The prong is far more humane than the conventional choke colloar also endorsed by the AKC as it can be set for a terminal constriction whereas the choke collar continues to choke the dog until the larynx, esophagus and other bodily harm can be done.

The prong used on any age dog can and will bring out a little yelp. Try to analyze the yelp for cowardice, vocalization for its own sake, reaction to physiological damage or other reasons. Maybe your dog does need a softer approach. Have you considered the Flinks method? With this method, you are balancing drive work with technical correctness. You actually condition the dog how to handle and how to react to the stress of a correction. Knowing when and how to rebound from a correction is as imortant as knowing when and how to give a correction. As I understand it, you have a dog from predominately high or show lines and these dogs require a softer handling / training approached. I don't want to conflict anything you are being taught or told locally I am only offering this for consideration as it is easy to sit here in the den and second guess someone half way across the country. Hope this helps. G.

from akc website, rules for obedience competition

 Quote:

"Section 2. Standard of Perfection. The judge must carry a mental picture of the theoretically perfect performance in each exercise and score each dog and handler against this standard. This perfect picture must be according to the Regulations and shall combine the utmost in willingness, enjoyment and precision on the part of the dog with naturalness, gentleness and smoothness on the part of the handler. Speed alone does not necessarily indicate willingness and enjoyment. Lack of willingness and enjoyment on the part of the dog must be penalized, as must lack of precision in the dog's performance. Roughness in handling, military precision or harsh commands by the handler must also be penalized. There shall be no penalty of less than one-half point."

lack of enjoyment must be penalized!!! in akc!!!
imagine that.
and the choke collar is not endorsed by akc any more than it is in schutzhund. in shutzhund, the dog must compete in a choke or a fur saver. in akc, the dog must compete in a choke or a buckle collar.
as for trainers, that is each individuals choice of equipment. there are just as many akc trainers using positive motivation as there are schutzhund trainers using compulsion, and just as many akc trainers using compulsion as there are schutzhund trainers using positive motivation.
akc trainers understand and utilize drives.
akc also promotes clicker training.

doyle, if you want to get a taste for akc, there's nothing wrong with that, but that doesn't mean you can't also do schutzhund.

I like the litte defense of AKC obedience, but it still sucks.

Anyone with bite dogs. . .what the hell are they doing at AKC events? Not very smart if you ask me.

I don't want to endorse any of their events, or give them any more money than I have to.

Why is military precision penalized???....I like precision.....isnt that the goal?....to be as close to perfect as possible.
I probobly should not even ask this one. :rolleyes:

Because military sounds mean, and mean the AKC don't likey.

AHHHHH yes....

Doyle, also I got to put in my 2 cents...or more...on when you talked about puppy classes for obedience. I think it is a great idea just for the socialization aspect but dont try and teach obedience in a group of dogs....it is crap.
Also I would say to save your money and get into a SchH club. You can teach you dog very nice obedience yourself, and with the guidence of a club you will find this much better....for you and the dog.
Pat

One thing I always try and point out is that your dog is just that.... your dog. If you are uncomfortable with training that is being done, then have the training modified. Most good trainers use more than one training method when training dogs. Personaly I do some corrections with young dogs, but I don't use a prong except as a problem solving tool. With young pups I use a buckle collar to do corrections. When the pup is older I switch to a nylon slip collar. For dogs that become leash wise, I will use fishing line that they don't really see or feel for doing some corrections until the dog thinks that I can get to them no matter what.

I suggest that if you are uncomfortable with any training methods, talk to the trainer and see about using a different training method. Most trainers are going to want to work with you. That is the goal to get you and your dog trained to do what you want, with methods that you are comfortable with. If you don't believe in a training method it won't work for you. All training takes a commitment to, and belief in, the process. With out that ou will not be consistant enough to make it effective. If the trainer is not willing to modify their methods then find another trainer that will work with you rather than against you.

vancamp,
while i do have issues with akc, i love them short legged guys too much to not do akc. i could do ukc or asca with them, but that's not any better. and if i want recognition, i almost have to do akc. that's the corgis. and the female shepherd i have. she's not real hard, and she has issues with schutzhund tracking, and she is more of a herding dog than a biting dog.
if you have a hard core biting dog, i can see how akc would be a waste. i don't have dogs like that--yet. after i downsize my current pack, i'll be looking into getting something with strength and substance, but for now i've got to work with what i have.

military precision is penalized because akc wants smooth and natural. military isn't considered smooth and natural.
akc judges don't just score the dog based on precision. they also score the team (dog/handler) as a whole based on the presentation and the team image. they want to see a dog and handler working together. my corgi has taught me that the team picture is more important than the precision. he forges and he sometimes sits a little crooked and he doesn't lose as many points as i think he should because he works happily and with me. he doesn't work for me.