I believe that a tumor that is sudden in appearance often means it's growing fast, lowering the probability that it's benign. This is a broad statement and overly simplified, but in general, that's what you'll take away from overviews of tumors. I'll find one for you.


Matt, I hesitated for over an hour about posting this, but I'm going to.

IME, and IMO, a food-driven dog with cancer who starts losing interest in meals -- it's time to start to think about final plans. This is only my experience, Matt, and perhaps others will say otherwise.

When my "heart dog" Luna refused her breakfast, which was only a few days after diagnosis of an aggressively growing tumor, I knew it was time. She had already shown that her energy was flagging, but her food ..... this girl, a senior rescue, lived for her meals. That day she turned away from her breakfast dish before it was empty -- I had to go into the bathroom to cry, out of her sight and sound.

Even if I am totally jumping the gun, Matt, I still do believe pretty strongly that it's time to at least have the internal conversation. It's a very hard thing for many vets to bring up before you do, I have discovered. Understandably .....

But dogs are hard-wired not to show weakness and pain. We have to suss it out for them, many (most) times.

I'd give the vet the knowledge that you are ready to talk about not allowing her to suffer. I'd make sure the vet is aware that your only priority is her quality of life rather than your pain and grief.

It's just my opinion, again, and I'm no health professional -- just someone who has waited a little longer than I should have, at least once, and never want to do that again.

Your girl is still enthusiastic in the evening, but (again, IME), you have received a strong hint that she is starting to fail.

I know that others will offer experiences and opinions if you want to read them. I think almost all of us have been there.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

I believe that a tumor that is sudden in appearance often means it's growing fast, lowering the probability that it's benign. This is a broad statement and overly simplified, but in general, that's what you'll take away from overviews of tumors. I'll find one for you.

Here's the first one that came up:

http://www.sharecare.com/question/what-are-benign-malignant-tumors

Hi Connie - thanks for the words of wisdom. I've seen you tell people that before and it's always stuck with me as being good advise, but still probably good for me to hear it again right about now.

The current information isn't great. As we'd figured, it's a large tumor. Big enough and complicated enough in fact, that my local vet said she doesn't have the surgical skills to attempt to take it out, so I'll have to go to a specialist. The current plan is to xray tomorrow morning and see if it's spread. If not, then they'll give her a vitamin K injection and then she'll go back in on Tues for a biopsy to see if it's malignant or not (probably is, since it grew so fast). If it has spread, then it's game over. If it hasn't, then either benign or malignant, we still maybe have a chance. I'd like to do whatever I can because this old girl has a valiant, fighting spirit. On the other hand, I will be honest with myself and admit that she's declined dramatically over the past 2 weeks in my opinion. She's still eating - I've been getting good nutrition down her still, but she's very tired and weak.

My biggest concern at the moment is what to do if things go bad tonight. It's 13 hrs until my vet opens and the night-time emergency guy around here is a weirdo freak. I won't take her to him, but she's seeming like she's having some pain. I can drive to the Animal Care Center which is 4 hrs away. They are excellent and open all night. I don't mind doing it if she starts to be in major pain, even if they end up having to euthanize her. Her belly looks puffy - maybe it's gas because she's been eating some different foods than she's used to as I try to make sure she eats. I could give her a gas pill and see if it helps. Or I could give her a tramadol for the pain - I have some on hand.

Other than that, I guess I'll keep you posted. Probably there's no amount of omega3's that'll help at this point. But thank you for all the assistance and support.

I'd give her Tramadol. At this point I'd consider pain management to be paramount.

My first though when I read your post was Hemangiosarcoma. Fast growing, often located on the liver or spleen, not uncommon in older large breed dogs. Sadly, it's most often fatal as it grows/metastasizes very quickly.

I lost my 12 y/o girl to hemangio this past summer. She had a checkup in mid March and was fine. The tumor was then discovered at the beginning of June and it had already metastasized.

Thinking of you and your girl tonight.

Thanks Mara. I gave her a gas pill and she seems to be feeling a bit better. Then I gave her 1 tramadol too just for good measure. She's resting comfortably now. Hopefully we can at least make it uneventfully through the night and then sort out a plan tomorrow morning with my vet. Going by the dosage chart, I can probably still give her 1 more tramadol and be ok (wouldn't be over the dosage limit) if she starts having too much discomfort.

" I can drive to the Animal Care Center which is 4 hrs away. They are excellent and open all night. I don't mind doing it if she starts to be in major pain, even if they end up having to euthanize her. Her belly looks puffy - maybe it's gas because she's been eating some different foods than she's used to as I try to make sure she eats. I could give her a gas pill and see if it helps. Or I could give her a tramadol for the pain - I have some on hand."

I would give the pain med, myself, and then I'd call that center for advice.

I would probably plan on spending the night close by her, regardless. Perhaps her bed could be pulled next to yours or some other arrangement?

But I would call that center and explain that you may be seeing ascites (fluid accumulation in her belly).

http://pets.webmd.com/dogs/liver-disease-liver-failure-dogs

http://www.petplace.com/dogs/ascites-in-dogs/page2.aspx

I would mainly try to stand tall and remain calm and upbeat for her, observe her, and make the phone call. I would make a quick note on paper first about what to ask so I remembered it all.

After the tramidol last night, Zora slept soundly and then I gave her one more dose around 5am. We made it through the night without incident and I took her in for her xrays this morning (I'm still waiting on the results). She didn't seem to feel great then, but afterwards I gave her another gas pill before I left with my other dog for agility class and work. I went back around 2pm to feed them both before going back to work, and she seemed to be feeling quite a bit better. She ate her whole breakfast and was doing ok when I left, so I didn't give her another tramidol. Perhaps the pains are gassiness from giving her so many different foods in order to get her to eat well.

According to the scale at the vet's office, she's gained 2.7 lbs since last Wed. They had told me to feed her a lot and try to bulk her up, so maybe that's a good sign. Unless she's gained fluid weight... I don't know. I *have* been feeding her a lot though - maybe her apparent lack of appetite has simply been because she's been full from my giant meals.

Regardless, I think the tramidol helped with her sore joints. She's got bad arthritis in her back, hips, and left shoulder. And a stiff knee from an old acl injury that wasn't properly dealt with, so it healed as best as it could but it's not normal anymore. Last Wed after her ultrasound, she got excited about one of my cats and leapt off the back porch (and crashed to the ground) and then last night she fell off the couch. So her joints have to be sore from all that.

--

Thanks for putting up with my rambling. It kind of helps me to brain dump.

Good news - the vet just called and her xrays were ok. The cancer hasn't spread to her lungs apparently. Biopsy tomorrow morning - we should know more in a couple of days.

Keeping fingers crossed -

My fingers are crossed. I've been thinking about your dog all day (and I know from PMs that others have, too).

Her bloating (that you saw) may indeed account for the extra weight.

Tramadol has been a positive factor in my life and in the lives of a couple of my senior dogs' lives since it came out. Even back when there was no generic and there was Ultram only (and it was VERY spendy), I used it anyway for moderate pain. IMO, it provides relief with less constipation, brain fog, and nausea. (I'm not a health professional.)

Do you have this book, BTW (in line with your original subject)? http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=26613&page=1

You may also want to see this: http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/cancer-diet/
There are good points in the online article, even though it's from 2009 and I would probably up the suggested fish oil dosage (JMO).

Please post back with any "rambling" you want.

I'll check that Grizzly dosage.

Matt, my fingers are all crossed for you, each and every one of them, thumbs hooked together too, well unhooked for typing.

Zora sounds like a real special girl. And it sounds like she couldn't have a better home than the one you're providing. They're so precious.