Thank the show world for all that division.
At one time the smooth and wire fox terrier were one breed. That changed in the 30s. Same thing for the Norwich and Norfolk terriers. The original Norwich terrier would have both ear carriages in one litter then folks decided "I like the prick ear" or "I like the folded ear". Thus the division of Norwich and Norfolk. That was in the 70s.
The Kerry was once just a dark dog in a litter of Wheatens. Both came from the Irish terrier.
The JTR can still have 3 different coats in one litter (smooth, broken and rough). We'll see how long that lasts with the "New" Parson Russell terriers. I've not seen anything but rough coated dogs in the breed ring. Groomed to the hilt of course.

 Quote: Bob Scott

The big name breeders put incorrect dogs/not so perfect dogs out with big handlers. The judges,(getting paid by the number of dogs they judge)don't have the nads to pass on something they know is incorrect. If they pass on these big breeders/handlers then they wont get future judging assignments.
I wont say it's all the judges but enough of the important ones to make a difference.
At the class level it's not so apparent but once a dog is specialed the games really begin.

There was one of those judges judging the breed in black cockers this year. Number one dog in 2011 (to the tune of beating 86,247 other dogs) was a black cocker who also happened to take a Group 1 last year at Westminster. I figured he would be the likely candidate for BIS this year. Well, he did not take breed - a Canadian dog did. I can only imagine the jaws that dropped ringside when that occurred. Would have loved to have seen it :-)

Anyways, I am off to Denver this weekend for their big dog show. Frost is in heat so no obedience but I have her in breed and Kipling makes his debut one day in the 4-6 month class which ought to be fun :-)

 Quote: SamanthaTopper

The AKC is not blameless. They sanction breed clubs and allow these breed clubs to dictate how dogs are to be bred.

When I explain to the people that AKC only says that the dog had to registered parents, and says nothing about quality, I always use the DMV analogy... It seems to "click"

The DMV just keeps a record of cars, registration. It doesn't guarantee that your car will be perfect and have no "manufacturer defects" nor do we hold the DMV liable for these issues when they do crop up. We blame the manufacture....

The DMV "recognizes" Chevy, Ford, Toyota and Dodge; what those manufacturers choose to do with their brand is up to them, as long as they make what the companies themselves say they are going to.

When a pup is registered with the AKC, they are only saying that the pup is the breed, not that it is quality. And I have no interest in having the AKC take over my breed club. My breed club has more than enough to deal with with just one breed, I can't even begin to think about how hard it would be to regulate 140 plus breeds.

To me, the blame for the dysfunctional breedings fall on the breeders that knowingly (or turning a blind eye anyway) breed hereditable defects, sacrificing health for "type". And also to the breed clubs that rewards it... But then I have an issue with breeders sacrificing the ability to do the job they were bred for to suite the show ring...

I find it amazing that the AKC in general turns a blind eye toward some of the unethical breeding practices that go on. But then I suppose when you run a business like this, it's no surprise.

http://www.care2.com/causes/westminster-dog-show-rebuffs-shelter-dogs.html

Tresa, Ive wondered the same thing, I mean if you start running into severe persistent health problems and a bottleneck in breed genetics I dont see whats wrong with it at all...especially if you used maybe other registered dogs as well you'd still be able to track the dogs entire lines- done scientifically it seems (theoretically) like a good idea...Im no breeder though so Im open to being refuted

Re: Mary and Bob

I know and I have never understood why varieties of the SAME breed should not be bred. Makes no sense and why not breed a Tervuren to a Malinois? Why not breed a lab to a golden or flat-coat? Its no bigger a jump than a show lab x field lab. You could always introduce a mix created from the breeds that made a breed.

Ben, the AKC is a registration organization that runs dog activities. Their involvement in the control of breeding goes only far enough to suspend/fine/etc anyone that goes against registration regulations. They do that but don't have enough folks to control everyone that is involved in illegal paper work.

Tresa, the varieties were once just one breed. In UKC the Belgain Shepherd is one breed that is defined by varities. Mals, Tervs, Lackinois (sp and Gren...whatever (the long coated black ones). I still doubt they cross the varities.In the AKC they are separate breeds.
It's people that select for particular coats, ear carrage, etc that have created different "breeds".
Crossing those "breeds" aren't in the best interest of making money or showing.
The Westie is a results of a particular man that bred/hunted Cairn Terriers. the story goes that he accidentally shot and killed his favorite terrier when he mistook it for a fox. He then started breeding for white dogs, thus the origin of the Westie.
The Westie has a couple of serious genetic problems. Maybe crossing back to the Cairn would benefit the breed but it would also create dogs that didn't breed true to color in addition to now differences in structure. breeders don't like that. It cuts donw on the number of pups they can show or sell.
I knew a well known Westie breeder that once showed me a litter of Westies with a Cairn colored pup in the litter. That was a throw back and I practically had to swear on a bible that I wouldn't tell anyone what I saw.
THAT'S what you would run into with crossing varieties.
The Dutch have it right though. The Mals over there are bred to what works. That may be a Terv, a Dutchie, or even a total outcross to another breed. These aren't registrable dogs but they are the cream of the crop for police work and you can bet your last dollar that the breeders know exactly what the pedigree is back many generations. They breed for "functional" dogs, not show or pet dogs. HUGE difference!

I believe there is more than one AKC show-line Mal breeder who would be thrilled to cross a Terv back in for correcting temperament flaws even with the segment trying to rid themselves of the long-coat 'mals'.

That they can't just register them as Tervs is stupid but like with everything AKC, it is what it is and it can really only be fixed by the breeders through their breed clubs.

 Quote: Charlotte Hince

I believe there is more than one AKC show-line Mal breeder who would be thrilled to cross a Terv back in for correcting temperament flaws.

I believe that there are breeders in many breeds that have already made crosses but never show it on paper. Heaven forbid!
In herding there is a breeder of AKC registered Aussies that show physical, as well as working characteristics of a Border collie. He'll deny it to his dying day though.