Quote: Bob Scott

I think moving from one training behavior to another depends on your skills. You never want to stop out of failure or frustration and move onto something else. Get a good behavior even if it isn't a complete exercise. Then you can move on to another that the dog understands and end on success.
Beginners need to fully understand why and how dogs learn.
This is a given for ANY level of training.

Not sure if this was directed at my post. sometimes im not good at explaining in words what I have in my head.
I certainly didn't mean that when frustration hits to move onto another training session. I was just trying to re-iterate to end that session on a good note by moving to a command the dog already knows so that the training session doesn't stop with both trainer and dog frustrated!
If Tuckers not getting it after a few minutes, he's not going to get it in that session and will just get antsy. So I just let it go, give him a command that's surefire, jackpot him and end the session all together.

 Quote: Wendy Lefebvre

 Quote: Bob Scott

I think moving from one training behavior to another depends on your skills. You never want to stop out of failure or frustration and move onto something else. Get a good behavior even if it isn't a complete exercise. Then you can move on to another that the dog understands and end on success.
Beginners need to fully understand why and how dogs learn.
This is a given for ANY level of training.

Not sure if this was directed at my post. sometimes im not good at explaining in words what I have in my head.
I certainly didn't mean that when frustration hits to move onto another training session. I was just trying to re-iterate to end that session on a good note by moving to a command the dog already knows so that the training session doesn't stop with both trainer and dog frustrated!

I think I was agreeing with and maybe expanding on your post.

Also, I received an email just now that made me stop and think and totally agree: as wonderful as marker training is, and as quickly as we can see that "it works!", it's no favor to us or our dogs to think it's some kind of short cut. Ground work is ground work, and being both patient and upbeat will always trump trying to do everything at once. JMHO (and the HO of a good trainer who mentioned this reminder in an email rather than on the thread, but I thought was too good a reminder to skip).

 Quote: Wendy Lefebvre

... sometimes im not good at explaining in words what I have in my head. ... If Tuckers not getting it after a few minutes, he's not going to get it in that session and will just get antsy. So I just let it go, give him a command that's surefire, jackpot him and end the session all together.

Looking back, I see that I have everyone beat hollow in "not explaining in words what I have in my head."

Bob, did you mean by "Get a good behavior even if it isn't a complete exercise" to get a good behavior out of the exercise that you are leaving for now? (Like, a link in a chained command?)

I'm brain-dead today.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: Wendy Lefebvre

... sometimes im not good at explaining in words what I have in my head. ... If Tuckers not getting it after a few minutes, he's not going to get it in that session and will just get antsy. So I just let it go, give him a command that's surefire, jackpot him and end the session all together.

Looking back, I see that I have everyone beat hollow in "not explaining in words what I have in my head."

Bob, did you mean by "Get a good behavior even if it isn't a complete exercise" to get a good behavior out of the exercise that you are leaving for now? (Like, a link in a chained command?)

I'm brain-dead today.

Exactly, but in seeing the comment about the dog "not getting it after a few minutes then he's not going to get it" I would say that there is impatience and frustration on the OP's part. In that case I ca see where going to a successful behavior is probably best.
It would be much easier to see where the OP is at with a video.
Absolutely agree that the basics of "any" system needs to be solid before advancing.

lol...that was me Bob...not the OP.

I know Tuckers limit...and how long he will last before getting frustrated.
It's not his problem, it's mine. Im obviously not being clear in showing him what I want, so i stop the training session before I get frustrated (yes, it happens), give him a rock solid command and jackpot him to end that session on a high note. Then I try to rethink a different way to go about training the new behaviour.\

This is only when im trying to teach a new behaviour. And when i say a few minutes I don't mean just a few tries then i give up.
I try a few things (luring, shaping etc.)to see what one he will pick up on.

That is what I try to do as well. Bindi has the stand command down pretty well. But suddenly (she does this sometimes) she has decided to not hold her stand. She will stand and then immediately sit. I realize that I probably have asked her to sit afterward so I am changing up the command sequence. So, I have to rethink. When things like this happen I always like to end on a positive note. I too find a command she does extremely well and then jack pot her. I am in the process of evaluating my moves to see what signals she is getting from me, and to also rethink how I can help her understand I want her to hold her stand for a little longer. Today we will be working on that. She is a great girl and the mistake is usually always mine. In a couple of repetition of showing her what to do she gets it from there and remembers quite well. What a girl!
What a joy to train dogs. What a joy to have a dog to train!

i think as long as people realize that 99% of the time, we need to rethink what we're doing and how we're doing it. It's not the dog that's the problem...it's me, or you...lol

And to reiterate....i agree with what Connie said about having good groundwork before hand.
i think marker training is good for most training, but if your groundwork with the dog is wonky it's definately not going to solve that problem.

Look at it like the little old lady that teaches her dog all sorts of cute parlor tricks but has no real control over the dog.
That's the sort of thing that gives marker training a bad name. It doesn't address leadership issues.
You could say that about any sort of training. There are some well trained dogs that have been trained with compulsion but the lack of leadership skills make the compulsion training nothing more then physical control over the dog.
I've said it in the past but I'd rather have a great truck dog then a top competitor any day of the week.

This is a key element to my problems with Jethro. I can train him with marker training and he enjoys it. At the same time, if I am not providing him with the leadership he needs, he can be a bat-crazy nutcase because he is taking up the slack.

For example, I realized Jethro was guarding the defrosting food and attacking Skipper for coming near it. I decided to demonstrate my ownership of the food and made it clear to Jethro that if I want to let Skipper near it, he is going to have relax and let it happen. Tonight I put Jethro in a Down and about 8 feet away, I demonstrated my ownership of the food by putting the container down on the floor and letting Skipper sniff it. Jethro had to stay in his Down, which he did very nicely. After Skipper sniffed the food, I picked it up and cradled it in my arms, all the while letting Jethro know that the food was mine and he was not allowed to get reactive about it. Later, when I fed the dogs, again, I put Jethro in a Down just outside the kitchen. I positioned myself between Jethro and Skipper, and fed Skipper where Jethro could see Skipper was eating first and I was in control of the situation. After Skipper finished, I fed Jethro in a private corner where he had his food to himself and there was absolutely no risk of Skipper getting too close. I was in charge of that, too. Now both dogs are curled up quietly sleeping while I have my dinner. Coincidence? I don't think so.

Yes, Jethro had to have enough OB to know what a Down is, which I taught with marker training. But he also needed me to position myself so that I was clearly providing leadership around the food. No question.

I've been having trouble with bones, as well, and I am sick and tired of Jethro dictating when and where dogs can have bones. Enough. I'm going to work out a safe exercise on a nice day, where Jethro has to tolerate Skipper having a bone and Jethro staying calm. Don't worry, everyone will be safe for the exercise.

 Quote:

For example, I realized Jethro was guarding the defrosting food and attacking Skipper for coming near it. I decided to demonstrate my ownership of the food and made it clear to Jethro that if I want to let Skipper near it, he is going to have relax and let it happen. Tonight I put Jethro in a Down and about 8 feet away, I demonstrated my ownership of the food by putting the container down on the floor and letting Skipper sniff it. Jethro had to stay in his Down, which he did very nicely. After Skipper sniffed the food, I picked it up and cradled it in my arms, all the while letting Jethro know that the food was mine and he was not allowed to get reactive about it. Later, when I fed the dogs, again, I put Jethro in a Down just outside the kitchen. I positioned myself between Jethro and Skipper, and fed Skipper where Jethro could see Skipper was eating first and I was in control of the situation. After Skipper finished, I fed Jethro in a private corner where he had his food to himself and there was absolutely no risk of Skipper getting too close. I was in charge of that, too. Now both dogs are curled up quietly sleeping while I have my dinner. Coincidence? I don't think so.

Coincidence? I don't think so either. I think its more like dumb luck that isnt going to help with anything. There's a difference between proofing a behavior or something you've trained and setting up conflicts you don't need.
Don't create some kind of competition for food. If you want to do anything, teach them a place command and have them both follow it.

You can't be a "Leader" unless the dog trusts you. This kind of thing is just screwin with him and isnt going to help build that trust.