I haven't figured out how to do multiple quotes on the board yet, so I'll just say I agree with everyone who has posted so far, but this one from Dr. Betty is SO important.

 Quote: Betty Landercasp

I prefer a "wild type" rear end -- the hind limbs are where the power is -- you don't want a dog dragging itself around with it's "arms".
Plus it seems all manner of hip, hock, and spine pathology flow from this weird conformation.

The roached and sloping backs are completely unnatural and also result in a very over-angulated hind limb assembly with excessive stress on the joints. The resulting crouched, twisting, paddling gait is painful for me to watch.

I know we all have different preferences as far as breed and general appearance, etc., but I cannot fathom how anyone could find such serious structural faults attractive.

Em, you say you have seen both parents. Have you watched their movement at a walk and a trot from different angles? Have you seen the hip certifications? Even if the parents look okay, be aware that a puppy acquires traits from its grandparents, great-grandparents, on down the line.

I wouldn't presume to tell you what dog you should or should not buy, but if I was looking for GSD, I would steer far away from any breeder who produces the defective type dogs, even if they have a few normal-looking dogs on the premises. Keep doing your research and be as sure as you can be that you are going to end up with the dog you want. After all, it will be with you, hopefully, for 12 years or so.

And just a disclaimer here. Of course it's not just GSDs that are being deliberately bred with horrendous faults these days!

Em, are you not really sure this breeder has working line dogs?

 Quote: Cheri Grissom

Em, you say you have seen both parents. Have you watched their movement at a walk and a trot from different angles? Have you seen the hip certifications? Even if the parents look okay, be aware that a puppy acquires traits from its grandparents, great-grandparents, on down the line.

I didn't study their walk/trot, especially not from different angles. I think the parents looked OK, but again, all the working line breeders I had looked at online had straight/natural backed dogs so I wasn't even really aware of the roach backed issues until I saw photos of other dogs from the breeders in their stacked positions later on. I guess what I'm trying to say is - I wasn't looking for signs of the roach back but I didn't see anything that struck up red flags about their movements at the time. The sire is OFA excellent and the Dam is normal, as far as I remember, but I didn't actually see any x-rays or ask for proof. I'm not even sure if it's worth a trip to see the parents again just considering that the photos of every other male on the property shows the sloping back.

I did watch a training video from the trainer coaching someone in obedience with their shepherd and it had that weird gait that those sloped back dogs get. I don't know if that was the breeders dog or the clients dog though. I definitely want to avoid any of that! Especially if it could pop up from further back in the lineage!

 Quote: steve strom

Em, are you not really sure this breeder has working line dogs?

I guess that thought had never crossed my mind, but again, I don't know much about show vs working line dogs (though I'm trying to do my research now). Do even show breeders in Germany need to put Sch titles on their dogs before they breed them? I guess I thought that Schutzhund titles meant working lines, but I think that I was very wrong on that account. However, I think the guy is very legit - he does a lot of K9 work with local police departments and K9 handler courses. He specializes in protection dogs but also sells/trains schutz sport dogs. He does protection dog/police k9 demonstrations at a lot of dog events in the area. When I first contacted him my biggest fear was a dog that was TOO much for Schutzhund novice because they were primarily Police K9/Protection bred.

When I asked what I could do to prepare for my pup he recommended leerburg/mike ellis dvd/info so I do know I like his training style. He also seems really into the science of drive building, canine behavior and sent me interesting articles about how he prepares/socializes pups for working careers.

Even within working line litters, there is a variance in level of drive, hardness stuff like that. Talk to a breeder about your concern of getting a dog that is too much and they can help you select the right puppy. You should *probably* go with a female but it may end up being a male with the traits you want. Just a thought.

 Quote:

I think the guy is very legit - he does a lot of K9 work with local police departments and K9 handler courses. He specializes in protection dogs but also sells/trains schutz sport dogs. He does protection dog/police k9 demonstrations at a lot of dog events in the area. When I first contacted him my biggest fear was a dog that was TOO much for Schutzhund novice because they were primarily Police K9/Protection bred.

This is all stuff you've seen, first hand? Have you been able to go out and see his dogs in training for Schutzhund, since thats what you're looking for?

It would be very helpful if we saw a web site or, at the very least, a pedigree of these dogs.
That would go a long way in seeing what these dogs are all about.

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

Please bare with me since I don't have a handle on this whole multiple quote things.

Tresa - I have requested a female for the very reasons you suggested. I said I'd be open to a male if the breeder thought that there was a male that would make a better dog for me, but I would prefer a female at this point. I actually think Ed has a really good article on differences between male/females and that is what I based my decision is based on. Also, my Malamute is male and I think it'd be easier with the mis-matched pair.

Steve - I actually feel kind of silly but no, I've not seen this first hand. I've seen some videos where he is working with the decoy/trainer I want to work with but it was more protection training then Schutz and short videos. Even with a general google search or pedigree search I can't find any evidence of his dogs competing in bite sports of any kind at any level.

Bob - The dog linked to in the first post is actually one of them. I wasn't sure about posting the breeder, especially if people were going to respond negatively. Not for my sake (I want the brutal truth from you all!), but I guess if he's not here to defend himself, then I didn't feel right about it. I'm going to keep looking for a puppy elsewhere at this point, but if you are interested in checking out the website please feel free to PM me and I will send you the information that way!

Em, I honestly don't see anything that would make me look there for a dog.Its only a website, so I could be missing a lot thats just not on there. I know you put down a deposit, so I'm sorry you're losing that, if you are. But I think your right looking elsewhere. Isnt Staatsmacht in Minnesota?

Why not ask them straight out if their dogs have show conformation or if they have a wild type hind end, or if the litter is mixed in this trait.
If the litter is close, go look. If mom is waddling along, forget it, but if she is functional the pup you are hoping for could be right there.
Besides, looking at pups is always fun, and will give you something to compare if you go looking elsewhere.