Kevin,

Thanks for the reply. You said:

"In the working dog realm drive development and escape/avoidance work are overlapped and integrated . . .. In the PSD work I've done over the last 20 plus years I've used just such an approach with escape/avoidance collar work.
It provides a motivated reliable performance."

I don't question or doubt you one bit. Could you please explain how it's done -- maybe a couple examples?

Also, it would be great to hear from Ed on this, because I was picking up on his comment that escape/avoidance training is old school and obsolete now that people have caught on to training in drive.

Thanks all,

Adam

First, escape/avoidance does not exclude training in drive.
Go back to a simple training mantra that Bernhard uses as well as every good working dog trainer I know.
Drive------Compulsion-------Drive
If you over lay that approach with..
Drive_____Stimulation---behavior----release of stimulation when skill is performed---held for a variable length of time______Drive
You have a somewhat over simplified diagram of the work.

It really helps to think of it in the Drive-Compulsion-Drive paradigm. That makes sense to me. One question though.

When you say, "held for a variable length of time," you are talking about the behavior being held by the dog for a variable length of time -- correct?

Thanks so much,

Adam

When you say, held for a variable length of time, you are talking about the behavior being held by the dog for a variable length of time -- correct?

Yep!

What do you know -- I actually got it. Kevin, thanks so much for sharing your time and experience. Other than this Board, it's damn difficult for a novice like me to tap into so much experience and expertise. This e-collar stuff can be a pretty nuanced area of training, so it is particularly helpful to have your insights.

Thanks

Adam Deutsch wrote: Is the "drive part" added during the 60 day (or so depending on the dog) period where stim is applied automatically before the command?

LC: It can be added almost from the start of the training. No need to wait.

Adam Deutsch wrote: Could you do the drive part from the first time you use automatic stim before the recall command, or does the dog need some collar literacy before doing so?

LC: I'd wait till he had some idea of what the collar meant. But that only takes 2–3 sessions.

Adam Deutsch wrote: You said don't think of the ball or bite as reward for the OB, because that will just confuse me (the handler). Could you explain this. Is it better just to think of it as putting the dog back in to drive?

LC: If you think of either as a reward for performing you lose sight of the real reason that you're doing it. The reward becomes the end of the movement, instead of putting the dog back into drive.

Adam Deutsch wrote: Would an example sequence be:Stim on -- Recall Command -- Compliance/Stim off -- Sit Command (no stim) -- Down Command (no stim) -- Ball/Bite

LC: Yep. You got it AGAIN. Good boy, wanna cookie? How about a bite?

I'll take the cookie -- I'm starving. Thanks Lou and Kevin for your helpful answers, and thanks for your patience.

Adam

SO I did my search and yes this is an old thread but I still have some confusion.

I am working with a SAR team mate who has attended Lou's seminars. I need to clean up some obedience with my dog and we are, right now, introducing the e-collar using the circle of comfort technique (I have used it in the past for proofing recall and crittering) Our biggest challenge is breaking position. Which is currently corrected by me running back to her and giving a pinch correction and putting her back into position.

Now the dog already knows sitz, platz, hier, fuss and does pretty well having been trained with food, ball (end of excercise) and pinch for proofing but I am still in proofing under distractions phase and increasing time on staying in position.

Our goal is NOT precision obedience (she is SAR) and I have read the article on keeping a working dog with drive satisfaction and that is my biggest concern / challenge.

I guess my quesiton is do you start all over with the commands and physically placing the dog in position with the collar when the dog already knows the positions?

We tried that with sitz and it was confusing to the dog as I have never had my hands all over her during training as all postion training was done with luring -

I would go back to basics and use markers for the basic commands.. I am finding that dogs taught with lures are not always clear on what an actual command means if the lure isn't there...

you will know the dog understands sit, stand, down etc... when you can sit on a couch, stand on a bucket and the dog will perform the command without a lure... it may take a bit longer to redo this with a lure trained dog, I have been working with one of my older dogs with markers and she was a bit confused at first...

I would (if this were my dog) make sure the dog is clear with the meaning of the words before going on with the e collar..(if I am understanding you correctly that you want to use the collar for distance work like holding position)..

Could you clarify the use of markers? As in clicker to mark the correct behavior?

I *think* she does understand as I can sitz and platz her at a distance with either hand or verbal commands and she knows to stay in a sit if I take off with right foot and to fuss if I lead with the left; we have dropped the use of the lure and now use it only intermittenly as a reward

My challenges are building obedience under distractions and duration.

You do understand my goals.