In the beginning the reward must e immediate but not so later on. Put the bag in random places. You may even put it on a table or even in another room. The reward doesn't have to come immediately after the mark. You can even have the reward in another room if the dog really understands the concept. Once the mark is given I "WILL" get a reward.
If the dog moves it's feet then give a negative and start over.
The dog may be expecting that immediate reward and moving because it's been so regular she's anticipating it. Make her wait longer before you mark and also wait a bit from the mark to the reward "IF" she's solid with markers.
Also check your timing. IF you not giving a negative (no) with the foot movement and not starting over then she's being rewarded for the last behavior. In this case it's the feet moving.

Sharon,

I put about 10-12 small pieces of food (eg. pea sized pieces of turkey hot dogs or chicken) on the side of my mouth and, then spit them out. This is something that must be learned by both you and the dog. Many, many pieces will miss in the beginning. Do not get discouraged. I teach this in the heel position at my side because it is easier to hit the target (his/her mouth) in a stationary position. I do NOT allow the dog to have any pieces that fall on the ground so I train this on leash. They are smart and learn, that if they miss and still get it ... they will not try hard enough to learn the behavior.

I started to reply to Bob by saying "but she marked; how can she now negative mark when the dog's feet move" and then realized I misunderstood the whole thing. I think.

The dog is not leaning after the marker, right, expecting the reward? Just leaning in general because the bait bag is there?

Mary: I too do not allow my dogs to pick up treats from the ground. I have only gone to one trail but noticed that many dogs were sniffing the ground and trying to get to treats. I do not want my dogs doing that. (I realize they may be smelling the scent of other dogs)
I will have to work on that pieces in my mouth. I can see how the effort is rewarded.
Sharon

yes this has been a concern of mine. I try and time the release of treats when she is focused on me. I have already given my marker que and as I reach to get the treat, she moves out of position by leaning a little to whatever side she sees my hand move. When she does this I shake my head no and put my hand back at my side. Communicating what she is doing wrong, that is where is the problem. She doesn't understand it she thinks the whole thing she did was wrong. When I put the treat bag on the counter (when in the house) she sees me go for it, she doesn't move out of position but kind of prances her front feet back and forth.
She is a very soft dog. When I give my non reward marker-silence and waiting, or I shake my head no. She understands something has gone wrong. In the past when training in the house and she tries to creep- when I do distance work, when I shake my head no, she immediately goes back to the starting position and waits for a command.So she understands my non reward marker. She has the worst time not creeping. And she gets really discouraged because I do not know how to communicate to her what she has really done wrong. She- due to my failure-hasn't figured out that it is her leaning or prancing in place or creeping in distance that is the problem. I try and reward and make a really big deal when she keeps her feet still and when she doesn't lean.
So I have to be very precise in my treat giving and try to be. But I will also begin to have her wait longer for her reward. She is a great dog and longs to please me, this is a good and bad point, because when she makes a mistake, it really bugs her and if she has a hard time figuring out what I want, she gets discouraged and rather than disappoint me, sits and waits to do something she can do well.( and I am not harsh with her either) It's weird. Anyway, thanks and I will stretch out my deliverance of reward longer and longer. Very food motivated, and very very smart. She figures things out quickly, usually two tries. Your help is appreciated. Sharon

no she is leaning after the marker, as she sees my hand move to get the treat, her eyes follow my hand, then to my eyes, then to my hand, and as she leans a little to watch my hand move to get the treat behind my back, that is when she leans a little out of position with her front feet moving a little.
At home I do not release the dogs to do anything unless they look at me. Going out side, the door does not open until they sit and look at me. same with going into their crate, and with the putting down of their food dish. Also, in training I do not give the treat unless she looks at me. So she does look at me, but does watch my hand move and lean. she doesn't lean until she gets the marker word and when my hand moves for the treat. Sorry I hope I am not making this more confusing by my description of the event.
sharon

OK, then, it's only after the marker?

"she is leaning after the marker, as she sees my hand move to get the treat,"



After the marker, she is released. So I'm thinking that as long as she needs to be in position, etc., you can give an intermediate bridge but not a terminal bridge (marker).

After you give the marker, before the reward, I wouldn't be giving a negative marker. The marker has been given, the reward is coming, period. If more is needed from her, then I'm thinking that either the behavior needs to be broken into smaller links before chaining them together or the behavior needs an IB (not after, but before the marker).

Reading this, I'm getting confused, and I wrote it.

Can you outline an exact behavior, and at what point you mark/release and she leans into the bait bag?

Humor me .... I'm trying to break the problem down.

100% agree with Connie. That's on me that I didn't read/comprehend the dog was moving AFTER the marker. It doesn't matter then. For me,and Connie I believe, the marker is also a release. Once the marker is given I don't care if my dogs jump over the moon waiting for the reward. They know the did well and WILL be rewarded.
My comment about the reward even being in another room would fit this also.
When heeling with my dogs the reward (tug) is often laying on the ground where we heel around it, over it,etc. The dog knows not to break eye contact with me until I give the marker. Then they know they are released to get the tug. IF, as you say, the dog is moving to look at the treat bag AFTER you have marked then it's no big deal. She's done what you've asked when you marked it.

My grand kids know where the cookie jar is. If I ask them to pick up their toys then know from past experience they will get rewarded. When they finish picking up the toys and I give them their marker (good job) they run into the kitchen where the cookie jar is. I don't expect them to sit still and wait for me to say go get it. I've marked it with "good job". Your bait bag is their cookie jar. Make sense?

" IF, as you say, the dog is moving to look at the treat bag AFTER you have marked then it's no big deal. She's done what you've asked when you marked it."


'Zackly!

The marker releases the dog. It's over. For me, leaning into the bait bag is just one of a zillion things that it's OK for the dog to do after the marker/release.

If there's a problem with what the dog is doing, then something in the training has to be modified. That's why I asked for the exact scenario.

The fix might be a longer chain, or intermediate bridges needed ..... but an exact scenario will be good. We can "picture" it better.