David, I totally agree that a good foundation is the key to a sucessful SAR dog, but are you saying that there is no need for FST? I was under the impression that in order to have a dog that can use both of her skills, FST and air scenting, that you need to start them on FST otherwise they would never put thier head back down when it is needed.

As always, the more i learn the more i'm confused.

No, no, no, I"m not saying that at all. I was merely pointing out that from a police perspective, I don't care how the dog finds the suspect in the end. Sight, sound, air scent or the luck of the draw, finding the suspect is the name of the game. FST does indeed lay a great foundation.

DFrost

Brian, the only reason I ask is that in my experience training a tracking dog with a team that does airscent, and not having resources available to me to help me troubleshoot, it was far too onerous a task to train my first search dog in tracking. When I started my second dog, I went directly to airscent because that is what my team has experience and has had a lot of success with. Now that my first dog is retired (never reached mission ready status, retired due to elbow dysplasia), I am still doing tracking with him for fun, and I have switched back to FST from TTD (training toward AKC TDX title currently) and am learning a lot. Because this tracking is just recreational, I don't have a whole lot of pressure to succeed, and when I screw up, it's not a big deal because nobody's life is at stake.

Everyone's experience is different, but for me, even with all the help I had from folks here, Ed's videos, and other connections that I corresponded with, it was very hard to train a tracking dog for SAR without in person help. If you're determined to do it, best of luck to you. I don't mean to discourage you; it is very possible to train a ground scent dog for SAR on your own successfully, and I do know of people who have, but it is HARD. You will recieve so much conflicting information from people who know what they're talking about that it will make your head spin.

Going back to your original post in this thread, just remember your foundation work is most important, and don't worry about the future right now. Get that puppy FSTing and have lots and lots of fun with it. Don't get ahead of yourself. You're not ready to worry about transitioning to TTD, and you won't be for a while.

Sorry for the novel.

Lisa,

I love your reply, thanks for all the advice, you also David. I do not plan on doing this entirely alone, i have access to a support system, but on a limited basis, so much of the begining training will be by myself. As I stated before i have trained a tracking dog before but not a SAR dog so i think i will be ok with FST and hopefully i will have a good support system when my dog is ready to advance.

By the way, i consider this disucssion forum to be a valuable part of my support system. Thanks everyone, and i hope i will gain enough experience to be able to provide the same type of support for others.

On this same line of discussion, All of our dogs are trained right away with air scent. Is there any advantage/disadvantage to teaching FST and TTD before airscenting? David and Lisa, you both mention them being a good foundation. Our TD has done a great job teaching what he knows,(airscent and cadaver) but gets hard headed when someone suggests techniques he hasn't taught before.

I think the behaviors learned in focused FST are what the dog falls back on when encountering problems which has it's benefits.

If a dog is on a warm trail and has lost it, for wind or whatever reason, he will fall back on what he was imprinted with. The nose hits the ground and the dog will circle, pick up the tracks, and you're off again. Another dog may do the same thing, but he doesn't have the advantage of the vast experience and skills a FST dog gets in that first year or so of tracking. One of the major points of FST is not only staying on the track, but having the ability and presence of mind to reaquire a lost track ASAP and with little stress. Goal being to stay as close to the real track as possible and with as little circling as possible. You work your dog on many different problems and over different terrains with those goals in mind.

Beneficial skills for the general purpose tracking dog.

Mr Scott,

Depending on the dog, I've found it to be both an advantage and a disadvantage. For example, our bloodhound, which can track a popcorn fart in a blizzard, absolutely refuses to airscent, he takes the long way around (follows the track)regardless of where the subject is. That can certainly be a disadvantage. On the other hand, the PSD's will take the easy way. Scent, sight or sound, like electricity, they find the shortest way to the subject. That can be a disadvantage if you are looking for dropped evidence, however it's a great advantage if you are trying to find the bad guy.

DFrost

Thanks VC and David! David, were/are the military dogs taught both tracking and air scent?
80% of the work our SAR team does is cadaver for LE. We still practice "live find" all the time also but it seems a good tracking/airscent dog would be a big plus.

Bob,

When I was at the dog school, it was much different than it is now. It was a basic 12 week course with mostly green dogs and green handlers. We did introduce tracking to all dogs, however as you can imagine, with the large number of dogs we worked with, not all showed an inclination to track. Those that did were continued in tracking, those that didn't, didn't. Tracking was not a critical item, causeing failure of the course. I can't really speak to what or how they are training them today.

DFrost

David, thanks again!