Junior you answered it yourself with "Ur right I'm getting to far ahead." its an understatement because your way way way far ahead.


I would be enjoying the heck out of the fact he's a puppy a sponge for learning and bonding with him, he needs your guidance so help him, show him, teach him and keep it fun, enjoy.

 Quote: Junior alva

Ur right I'm getting to far ahead. I just don't want to not be ready when the time is right. Thank you Anne and all who have post...

It is still not the correct way to use markers & e-collars to stim a dog at the time of marking a behavior.

You really need to learn about using marker training properly & how to properly use an e-collar before you destroy you relationship with this puppy. You idea of both is WAY off.

I find this thread very confusing...
What is the point of a stim when marking "Yes"? I don't use an ecollar, but if it were used in combination with markers, would it not be for a correction. I can't visualize a stim being a positive reward (which is quadrant one of the operant conditioning block). IMO, it would be considered a positive punishment. I can't even envision how that would work with classical conditioning (unless you're planning on using the stim as a cue for the behavior, which seems absolutetly f***in' nuts. If I were the dog, I'd bite your ass!).

If we don't stick in a quick note here, it might become even more confusing. When Duane says "positive punishment," it's not something pleasant. It means adding something unpleasant as opposed to taking away something pleasant (which would be a "negative punishment").

In Operatnt Conditioning, positive and negative are not used the usual way; "positive" refers to adding, and "negative" refers to subtracting.

I believe that Junior is getting the idea to use the stim in conjunction with markers (like a clicker) from a trainer that will not remain un-named (Fred Hassen of Sit means Sit) whose e-collar training methods employ these types of 'skills'. Although I may be mistaken.

Duane you haven't been around here very long, but he has has been discussed here previously at length more then once. His training methods are not well acepted here at all. Why the hell would you want to make your dog even the slightest bit uncomfortable when marking a desired behavior is beyond most of us here. But that is the kind of stupid stuff this guy promotes.

Yep, I could smack my dog on the head as an alternate for a clicker or a maker word...but why the hell would I. I want my dog to happily want to work for me & find it pleasant & enjoyable...not have him feel the slightest bit uncomfortable doing so. That's nuts!

We are not a bunch of 'tree huggers' here at all & find appropriate corrections an accepted part of proofing in dog training when needed. But to do so when there are other positive ways to train...we prefer to choose them.

 Quote: Anne Jones

I believe that Junior is getting the idea to use the stim in conjunction with markers (like a clicker) from a trainer that will remain un named (Fred Hassen of Sit Means Sit) whose e-collar training methods employ these types of 'skills'. .... Duane you haven't been around here very long, but he has has been discussed here previously at length more then once. His training methods are not well acepted here at all. Why the hell would you want to make your dog even the slightest bit uncomfortable when marking a desired behavior is beyond most of us here. But that is the kind of stupid stuff this guy promotes. ....

I think Anne is right. Junior, this guy is not allowed on this board. That's what the owner of LB thinks of his methods.

I bought my Dutch Shepherd from a "Dog Trainer" who used e-collars to train in the method of using the stim while giving a command. There are several so called dog trainers out there who utilize that training method. It's classic Escape Avoidance training and it is a good way to screw up a dog.

I met my Dutch Shepherd, Aragon, at the age of six months and agreed to purchase him as a fully trained dog (I didn't know anything about dog training at the time). The "trainers" had him until the age of 9 months. Little did I know they were using the stimulation on the e-collar while giving him a command. When I got him at 9 months he had turned from a happy young pup to a nervous, shy dog that was always afraid of getting lit up by the e-collar. Junior, do not ever put the e-collar on your dog and use the stim while giving OB commands. You will get a dog that will perform the commands but does so reluctantly and is always scared and nervous.

Aragon was originally trained with the e-collar and I can tell you that now I almost never use it. When trained properly with marker training (and a pinch collar for corrections) I have been able to turn Aragon into a confident young DS again that is way better with his OB commands than he ever was with the e-collar. Now I think an e-collar can be used as a good tool. But for 95% of dog owners they are simply unnecessary.

Junior, the Malinois and Dutch Shepherd breeds are very similar. And you are right about them being very smart but they are also very sensitive as young dogs. When you make a mistake while training them you will know it immediately because they will shut down. They do not respond well to unfair training methods and you will spend a lot of time fixing the screw ups that you caused if you put that e-collar on them at an early age. I know you already agreed that you were getting too far ahead but I just wanted to relay my story with you because I have a similar dog that was trained from a young age with the e-collar. And nothing good will come from it. IMHO I wouldn't think about putting an e-collar on your dog until he is at least a year old.

I know that most of the time when a question is asked on this forum the answer is typically "marker training". And the reason why marker training is always the answer is because it really works. I have seen it first hand transfrom my dog from a nervous and scared young dog that was just OK with OB commands into a confident and happy young dog that is great with his OB commands now.

Junior was talking about stimming while giving the marker, as opposed to stimming while giving the command.

Actually, stimming while giving the marker is even worse to me.

 Quote: Anne Jones

I believe that Junior is getting the idea to use the stim in conjunction with markers (like a clicker) from a trainer that will not remain un-named (Fred Hassen of Sit means Sit) whose e-collar training methods employ these types of 'skills'. Although I may be mistaken.

The "trainers" that I bought Aragon from were trained in that "trainer who will remain un-named" school of thought. I can personally testify to how stupid and harmful it is to a dog. I only wish that back then I knew what I know now.

Right on, A.J.
And thanks to my guardian angel, who has enlightened me (and linked videos). I have taken the crash course and now understand the concept. It still blows.

This reminded me of why I prefer verbal markers over a clicker (or a remote). I prefer communicating as much as possible verbally because
a) it's hands free, which means more hands available for luring, giving hand signals, handling rewards and toys, etc., and
b) there's no item (clicker, remote) for me to forget on my dresser.