Quote: Julie Sloan

See I have a question already. I read dogaware's site first and printed that to send to Mom tomorrow. When reading Lew's I noticed he doesn't say to add calcium citrate specifically, or if you should add it at all. This is going to be completely confusing for her. Add it or no, and what form? The success stories sound very reassuring, although I did read somewhere that some dogs are stone forming dogs no matter what you feed them, so I know it is not a for certain thing no matter which way you go. But this sure sounds like the way to go.

Lew is a she.

Don't send anything yet, is my suggestion.

Suggest that she buy a few cans of Newman's Own Canned Beef Formulas varieties ("no carbs ... therefore essentially no oxalates") as mentioned on dogaware (and stir extra water in) until she receives your printed diet. She will be hydrating him and taking a big step up, and she can make the home-cooked when she gets the printed material.

Or she can very simply cook up some eggs, leaving out half the yolks since he is not used to that fat, and pouring a bit of chicken broth over them to add fluid and enhance the taste.



Lew does indeed talk about calcium on the diet link, but you are right: it might be best if we iron out the diet completely with no "footnotes." (She recommends calcium carbonate without D added.)

Just above the "sample diet" are these notes:

QUOTE on Lew Olson's site, directly above the two sample diets:

Foods to avoid would include barley, corn, brown rice, wheat, soy, most beans, potatoes, sweet potatoes, spinach and nuts.

Foods that can be fed include all meat, dairy (no flavoring or sweeteners, NOT soy based), eggs, Brussels sprouts, cauliflower, white rice, canned pumpkin, and meat and fish broths. Some sources can vary on assessing the oxalate content of food, so compare several lists. ..... A good proportion to feed would be approximately 65% to 75% animal protein, and 25% to 35% carbohydrate (vegetables listed above or white rice). Approximate feeding amounts are 2% to 3% of the dog’s body weight daily. On average, a 100 lb. dog would get 2 to 3 lbs. of food daily (approximately 4 to 6 cups), a 50 lb. dog would get 1 to 1 to 1-1/2 lbs. daily (2 to 3 cups) and a 25 lb. dog would get 8 oz. to 12 oz. daily (1 to 1 ½ cups). You would also need to add calcium carbonate, at a rate of about 900 mg per pound of food served. .....

Calcium can be another issue for calcium oxalate formers. While it is uncertain whether or not calcium will create problems, it is know that calcium excretion in the urine can form crystals and stones, so it is suggested to avoid foods that are high in calcium...

Additionally, the medications listed above that can cause calcium excretion in the urine should also be avoided. You may add some yogurt or cottage cheese, but only as a small part of the diet, not as main ingredient.

You will need to add calcium to diet, but use a calcium carbonate supplement WITHOUT vitamin D. Vitamin D increases the intake of calcium.



If you wait until tomorrow, I can dig out nutrition manuals and compare sites to see which calcium form is more highly recommended.

 Quote: Julie Sloan

Oh, vet had him on prednisone this past summer. I tried to talk her out of it, but she was at a loss on what to do for his insane itching. he got very depressed on it, and snappy, and they took him off of it. Now she just medicates him with allergy meds when she really needs to.

What does "allergy meds" mean? Prescription antihistamines? Which? Hydroxyzine?

Is he atopic?

Is he getting allergens washed off frequently and his paws cleaned and patted/blotted dry after every trip outside? Is she checking his ears (inside) regularly for inflammation? Is he on year-round flea prevention? I don't want to hijack this thread, but you might want to start another thread addressing it. This is a dog who everything should be done for to avoid the need for Pred.

 Quote: Julie Sloan

He turns his nose up at anything that isn't kibble, ANYTHING. The dog won't eat steak, peanut butter, nothing. He will only eat if they are sitting down eating, will paw all food off his plate, then eat what he wants.

He won't starve himself.

Kibble "dust" from his current bag can be saved to sprinkle over his new home-cooked food for the first couple of meals.

Again: He will NOT starve himself.

I do not know the answers to the allergy questions. We will talk in the morning. It's later there. I do know that they told her to take him completely off beef as that is something that a lot of dogs are allergic to. he hasn't had beef in a few months as long as she is being careful to not let him have any in anything else. I do not think he gets his feet wiped all the time unless it's raining. Mom had back surgery and doesn't do a lot of unnecessary bending. I think he gets weekly baths. I know when I was there to take care of her after the surgery I had to bathe him. I remember thinking, geez I'm glad my rottie doesn't need baths so often. :-)

I saw that they said to use liver as a mineral food, and only to use chicken liver for half. That would be something to work around if she doesn't want to give him beef. I have to understand this completely because she is going to count on me to tell her what to do, and it's going to seem overwhelming at first for her. I was overwhelmed until you all shared this. J




Allergy topic moved to http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=33036&page=1#372190

Edited by Connie Sutherland (01/16/2013 10:28 PM)
Edit reason: mod re-direct

flea preventative I am not sure about. I know she uses something, he doesn't get fleas, but I can't remember what. he refuses to eat anything, so meds of any kind are tough and have to be forced. I will ask that too.







Allergy topic moved to http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=33036&page=1#372190

Edited by Connie Sutherland (01/16/2013 10:29 PM)
Edit reason: re-direct added

Also found out that 20 percent of the shell is calcium phosphate. I am going to call the hospital that did the surgery and see what they can tell me. I am going to look that up and see what I can find on that.

Well it looks like that would be considered a compound stone. But to make it a little more interesting the hospital that did the surgery said that the stones were 100% calcium oxalate.

I just emailed Lew Olson to ask about calcium citrate versus calcium carbonate in the home-cooked.

Also found in my Merck vet manual that Miniature Schnauzers, Lhasa Apsos, Yorkshire Terriers, Bichon Frise, Shih Tzus, and Miniature Poodles are all particularly susceptible to calcium oxalate stones.

It confirms the water intake importance.

PS

If your mother goes the cooked-eggs route (mentioned earlier) for a couple of days while we work out the exact cooked diet, this dog is old enough to go without any calcium in his food for a few days. (It's growing puppies who you would be much more careful about.) Of course it can't be long-term.

JMO!

Eggs have either zero or almost zero oxalates.

NO SHELL!

OK, Lew Olson said that either form is fine. (The calcium itself in the diet doesn't affect calcium oxalate uroliths, so the question was about the possibility that citrate inhibits bladder stone formation as it does kidney stone formation in some individuals.)

So MHO is to go with Lew's sample diets, supplemented with the calcium citrate that Mary recommends.

Maybe it would be easier for you to find the calcium citrate for your mother? It would be pretty lightweight to mail.

Strictly avoiding foods high in oxalates, plus daily hydration and frequent urination (flushing that system to minimize the mineral-clumping opportunities as much as possible), plus doing everything possible, starting now, to avoid a need for Pred for his itchies, are big goals for your mother. JMO!

Also, I've been checking out that B-6 recommendation we saw. So far I've found solid research pointing to success with lowering stone formation in kidneys, in human women. I need to find more info. I will do that this weekend. (If anyone has any dog-specific, calcium oxalate-specific, info, I'd love a link.)