Re: New Member
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#378710 - 05/31/2013 01:17 PM |
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Is it doable to keep the dog "inside" (closest to the buildings) and the human on the "outside" (exposed to passersby, etc.)? (I'm thinking that such "daring" from behind would override my proofing, too, and that I'd probably have to insert myself between such a trigger and my dog.)
What Connie said is the cardinal rule we follow here when walking or running on the bike paths. I wish I would have thought of mentioning it because it applies in any setting, whether on a wide bike path or on the sidewalks of NYC. I normally walk my dog on the right side of the pathway and have my dog on my left. If I see someone coming, I tell her "other side" and she immediately passes across my front and goes to my opposite side, putting me now between her and the traffic. I never have her walk on the side where there is passing traffic, bikes, joggers, or otherwise.
Bailey |
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Re: New Member
[Re: Hadley Allen ]
#378727 - 05/31/2013 05:45 PM |
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This is a desensitizing & training issue...not an e-collar fix it issue.
This is a 14 month old field line golden. Correct? It is a VERY young dog with, I expect, a very good prey drive. You need to teach the dog what you expect of it, not stim it with an e-collar.
You need to spend the time desensitizing the dog to the boards, scooters, etc & really training it to cap its drive to chase fast moving objects.
MY DOGS...MY RULES
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Re: New Member
[Re: Greg Meyer ]
#378729 - 05/31/2013 05:58 PM |
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Appreciate the clarification, Hadley. Without being there with you, I obviously can't picture exactly what you're having to deal with so I apologize if I misunderstood. Hopefully you'll get some better suggestions from the others here.
My initial thought after reading your post was concern over jumping straight to an e-collar and, like you stated, should not be your first choice. Hopefully, there is a way to gradually desensitize your Golden in a less demanding setting, perhaps by even recruiting some of the very same people causing you all the grief with their skateboards and scooters, as was mentioned on a different recent thread. I put a lot of stock on the use of the prong collar and the "leave it" command as a way to control the impulse to lunge. In the split second the need comes up to use it, I'm not sure an e-collar could be used correctly or fast enough without your finger being constantly on the trigger or button. Then again, I don't use an e-collar so I can't say for sure. I always considered an e-collar as a more effective tool when working at distances from the dog.
I don't see this as an e-collar issue, either. The post about the Leerburg e-collar videos was (IMO) a good suggestion.
To me, this is much more of a foundation thing .... not to keep saying the same thing (although I guess I am ), but to me this is a training and proofing and desensitizing issue, with management for now (keeping the human between the dog and the skateboards).
A dog who is obeying a command isn't chasing a skateboard. But it takes a bunch of work to get there.
I'm not in any way shrugging off the skateboards going by right beside the dog. My dogs haven't been desensitized or proofed against that and they would react strongly. And I'd have to work on it.
"In real life" isn't usually where to start, because you want to be proofing your commands against gradually escalating distractions, starting with none.
And meanwhile, I manage the distraction.
JMO! I certainly see it as challenging (but like all ob training, worth doing).
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Re: New Member
[Re: Hadley Allen ]
#378730 - 05/31/2013 08:55 PM |
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Just want to add that these aren't anti-e-collar posts. There are at least two regular users on the thread, who are just not seeing this as an e-collar situation.
"One of the things I was interested in doing with Kippy is therapy work and learn to read work (children read to dogs)."
I keep forgetting to link you to this thread, which is related to one of your goals for your dog:
http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=33376&page=1#377781
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Re: New Member
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#378746 - 06/01/2013 11:28 AM |
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Greg:
Thank you for your understanding. I have hired skateboarders to help me condition Kippy. As a result, when they are coming TOWARDS us, he is much better. Not 100%, but he's able to stop himself after I remind him with a "no" the very second his ears prick forward with interest. Ideally, he won't show any interest at all, but at this point, I need to remind him.
It's difficult to practice this in a situation other than "real life" since, during dry weather, it is almost impossible to be on the street and not see a skateboarder and / or a scooter - or a bunch of them moving together down the street. Its not something that can be practiced indoors - and in the process of getting to the park to practice, you're likely to see a skateboarder or two....
The other issue with skateboarders / scooters are young children, say 4 years old, who are just learning how to use a scooter and are not in control of the scooter (why their parents permit them to practice this skill on a busy sidewalk is another issue.) I have seen youngsters bump into people and inanimate objects.
So, Kippy and I will be happily walking down the street and a young child will be around the corner from us - therefore unseen and unheard - and they almost bump into us, or actually do, which causes the child to squeal, drop the scooter and run away from "the big dog." Of course, all Kippy wants to do is lick their face, but they don't know that. The combination of the sudden proximity, scooter, and squealing child is simply too much for him and he lunges. Again, if I see the scooter before he does, I can direct his attention towards me, and we're okay.
He's a great dog, and I'm not going to mess him up with the incorrect use of an e-collar. I will take whatever steps I need to in order to 1) learn how to use the collar correctly, 2) condition him to wearing the collar and the stimulation 3) apply the correction correctly.
The Hadster |
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Re: New Member
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#378747 - 06/01/2013 11:36 AM |
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Connie:
Thanks for this link! That is EXACTLY what Kippy and I are training to do. He has friends in wheel chairs and motorized chairs, and has learned to sit quietly and take a treat from these people. He approaches just about every one with a soft expression and a wagging tail, and he has learned that if he sits down, he will get the attention and affection that is his biggest motivator. This fall, when he is 18 months old, we are going to be professionally evaluated for therapy work and will begin training.
The Hadster |
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Re: New Member
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#378748 - 06/01/2013 12:54 PM |
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I don't see this as an e-collar issue, either. The post about the Leerburg e-collar videos was (IMO) a good suggestion.
To me, this is much more of a foundation thing .... not to keep saying the same thing (although I guess I am ), but to me this is a training and proofing and desensitizing issue, with management for now (keeping the human between the dog and the skateboards).
A dog who is obeying a command isn't chasing a skateboard. But it takes a bunch of work to get there.
I'm not in any way shrugging off the skateboards going by right beside the dog. My dogs haven't been desensitized or proofed against that and they would react strongly. And I'd have to work on it.
"In real life" isn't usually where to start, because you want to be proofing your commands against gradually escalating distractions, starting with none.
And meanwhile, I manage the distraction.
JMO! I certainly see it as challenging (but like all ob training, worth doing).
I would STRONGLY recommend the Leerburg (Ed Frawley) ecollar video before making any decisions about training with an ecollar. The introduction is worth its' weight in gold, and Ed makes it clear about how much foundation is needed before training with the ecollar begins. He emphasizes that all training begins with positive, motivational techniques, and he reviews the foundation work that applies, including recall on a long line. He also demonstrates how to use the collar, and the effect it has on the dog.
I have thought many times about using an ecollar on my current dog because of some specific training issues, but have solved every one of those issues using markers and her food drive. NOT using it forces me to be a more thoughtful and creative trainer, and makes my dog much more solid.
I certainly advocate the use of ecollars for hard, stubborn working canines and hunting dogs, but I think most handlers resort to one much too readily. I have little regard for someone who uses it as their primary training tool.
Welcome to the forum, Hadley.
Sadie |
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Re: New Member
[Re: Hadley Allen ]
#378793 - 06/02/2013 10:28 AM |
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A really good thing about the videos is that they show what the e-collar IS good for .... not that its use is reserved for any specific dog-trait description .... but how it's used best.
I want to say "welcome" again, too, because it can be disheartening to have a first question evoke so much "nay" response.
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Re: New Member
[Re: Hadley Allen ]
#378794 - 06/02/2013 10:30 AM |
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Thanks for this link! That is EXACTLY what Kippy and I are training to do. He has friends in wheel chairs and motorized chairs, and has learned to sit quietly and take a treat from these people. He approaches just about every one with a soft expression and a wagging tail, and he has learned that if he sits down, he will get the attention and affection that is his biggest motivator. This fall, when he is 18 months old, we are going to be professionally evaluated for therapy work and will begin training.
You have obviously done very good work with Kippy.
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Re: New Member
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#378854 - 06/03/2013 01:58 PM |
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Thank you for your post. it was dis-heartening.
I have watched the Michael Ellis videos on the ecollar - both of them - and the one for ecollars for pet owners, and have decided to get one for Kippy.
Because he's in the water CONSTANTLY in the summer, I'm going to get the one with two receivers on the collar and the elastic on the collar itself.
We will have all summer to get ourselves habituated to wearing it, conditioned to it, and to begin work with it on commands that Kippy is already fluent in.
My goal is not to stimulate him as he's chasing the skateboard. Instead, I will hire some local skateboards and teach him not to show anything but a mild interest in a skateboard. We'll work first from a distance - as much as we can get in the park - and then gradually move them closer to Kippy. When he gets into his full force prey drive mode, I'm not sure he even hears me, but I have worked with him on not showing an interest in the first place. If I can get him to a point where he show's no interest, that will be as good as his recall.
I can't call him off a squirrel, but I have been able to limit his interest in them. The trick is to catch him the very instant he shows anything but a mild interest. He's getting better at ignoring them and I have to correct him only when the squirrels are very close. (the NYC squirrels now a dog on the leash can't catch time, so some of them will actually taunt the dogs. Honestly.!)
Thanks again for your post!
The Hadster |
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