How condescending to assume that no one here has trained service or therapy dogs. Had you brought up before that you had 4 service service dogs, I would have been far less understanding and far more critical of your "training."

We're to believe that dogs that will not recall are so well trained that they can work independently from their "handler." Maybe having a snack... you never started what these service dog's function was.

I'm not sure what the difference between formal and informal training is, but I can infer from your posts and videos that informal training does not require compliance or proofing. I'm one to think outside the box, but you never demonstrated anything beyond normal pet behavior out of some low drive, biddable dogs.

You never explained this mystic, Zen training you conducted with your dogs. You never showed it in your videos. What did you bring here for us to validate? 4 big dogs continuously being placed into situations that could cause harm to the public.

I'm glad the board members no longer have to constantly refute your claims for the safety of the general public that reads here for educational purposes.

There Andrew, now we're both done.

David


P.S. mods, feel free to remove this if it's too harsh. No admonishment necessary

I can see why Andrew wouldn't have mentioned his diagnosis because of fear of being judged or talked down to. BUT, on the other hand, if you're vague about what you are doing with your dogs, people on the board don't get the big picture. So then they try to help based on what they are seeing.

A lot of the benefits of having a service animal for a mental condition are from the bond you have with the dog. Its possible that a low drive dog could serve that purpose. Obviously it couldn't function as a seeing eye dog, but to keep a person calm, yeah. But a dog working in public should be trained to be under control of course...meaning basic obedience, stable temperament and appropriate tasks trained to help the disabled handler.

I have not yet seen an instance where public service dog work is done by multiple dogs. Please correct me if I'm wrong but from everything I've seen public work is done by a single trained/under control dog.

Tresa, I'm not arguing against the value of a PTSD service dog. Just having the dog there allows many to function again in public.

The reality is that these same dogs are held to the same standards as a seeing eye dog when the law is concerned.

Mara, I am in the same boat. Never have I seen multiple service dogs on one handler for anything other than training.
I do also agree that a lower drive dog is in fact preferable in some cases.

I've got 2 certified Therapy Dogs- tested and registered with Therapy Dogs International. BOTH have had extensive training. BOTH do their jobs exceptionally well. NEITHER is EVER off leash in a dangerous situation- either while when they are working or when they are not. (I trust my dogs explicitly, I do NOT trust the general public or their dogs)

Even in a Therapy Dog group visit, each dog has a single handler. There are some handlers that are certified to work 2 dogs together, but most prefer one dog at a time. Dogs are always on leash- this is a rule of TDI.

But I guess my dogs don't count in Andrew's world- Drift the Magnificent and Caterina the Great feel offended...

As far as dogs mirroring/reading behaviors, well, DUH. That's what dogs do. They ALL do that. They read and react to their environment. My dogs read me like a damn book. I am not sure I would dose my medication based on the behaviors of my dogs- except Drift who appears to be able to read blood sugar levels... It is what it is, I guess...

Andrew, there is lots to be learned here. I think if you spent less time trying to defend yourself and actually listen to what people are trying to say, you will progress greatly in your training.

Dog training is constantly evolving. There are new methods coming out all the time. I haven't seen any actual training from you, Andrew, so I can't really decide whether or not your methods will work for me.

My 2 cents, take it for what it's worth.

--Kelly

When I first joined this board I was a 15 year old know-it-all. It's a great testament to the board members patience that they put up with me through my teen years. They are a great group of people and genuinely just want to have civil discussion about dogs. Your posts have brought out the worst of some of them but go onto other boards and see what it dissolves into there.

Stick around even if you're going to just lurk for awhile. The board evolves over time and is very tolerant of different training methods as long as they aren't abusive.

Cathy, don't say "civil discussion" to folks that do bite training with their dogs. It takes on an entirely different meaning.

I have been reading this post and I must assure you David that it is because of this Board that Ziva is still at home and progressing positively. We all have our issues and dog situations. They all differ and are proper to us. As dog owners we must be responsable and do what is best for us, our dog and the pack. I think by taking everyone experiences and using different things one can find what works for his situation. One must be flexible to try stuff and also being able to see if it works or not and move on to something else from there. It is like a potluck....everyone brings food and you take what you like and leave what you don't....one may even try something he never had before and expend his palate and taste buds to new flavours.

Criticism is good as long it is positive.....by both the giver and the receiver. I will be for ever gratefull to everyone on this Board to not call me crasy (even though I am sure most were afraid for me at the beginning lol) for giving Ziva the chance to show her true colours, because I, the painter did not know how to see them in their full brighteness.

This being said..... even if you feel you have been shot out..... that could be just the way you are perceiving things....reading words is diffucult more than verbal communication.... I would suggest to everyone, not only to you David.... start fresh.... they are more kind and understanding and forgiving people that walk this earth then the contrary.

I think that when one is asked to explain in detail what he does or to share videos of his method, it shows the interest of the one who is asking and his/her desire to learn....as a coach I love to share ideas and hear about collegues way of doing things. Don't you?

The decision is yours..... but we (if I may say WE) are all interested to learn from eachother as this is how we can make a better world not only for us but for our dear canine companions.

Best of luck, hope you will reconsider and that we will be able to say "Welcome back" lol...... One has, at time, to be like a duck in the rain and let the wather fall on his back and not let it go to the skin.....

I've gotten plenty of (deservedly) harsh criticism here at times over mishandling issues with my dog. I've taken my lumps and do my best to learn and do better.

My general thoughts:
If you think you already know everything, there is no room to learn anything new.
You are responsible for how others make you feel.

With these two maxims in mind, you can learn from almost anything.

 Quote: David Winners

Tresa, I'm not arguing against the value of a PTSD service dog. Just having the dog there allows many to function again in public.

Don't worry I didn't take it that way and by all means they should be held to high standards like any other service dog. I didn't realize he had more than one at a time and off leash? I'll have to go read the threads.


Kelly, relying on a dog to take meds for bipolar actually may be a more reliable way then relying on the self. Sometimes with mood disorders, one isn't aware if its them or the environment that's gone awry....or they loose track of time, not realizing how many days they have been that way...etc. So I could see how dogs could be better indicators if the person knows what signals to look for. Dogs can do that without insulting or making it personal, that could be another plus.