Jennie, normally I would agree. But when someone talks about wanting this type of a dog and breeds for it, they need to be ready to accept the consequences of their actions. Personally, the pup mentioned above should NEVER go to a pet home with small children, IMO

Jennie, have to say I'm with Angela on this one. Because you are new, you missed the postings Howard made before he bred his bitch (I think before) stating the high levels of social aggression he sees and how it is a benefit for a protection dog. Some of us had our reservations about owning dogs like this for most people, and were told in no uncertain terms we were wrong. Social aggression IS a desired trait, and IS to be bred for.

The original postings explaining 'social aggression' and it's place in protection dogs is on http://leerburg.server294.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=135;t=000060 if you'd like a bit of history on this.

What I am surprised about, is that a breeder is breeding EXACTLY what he wants, goal being protection with high levels of social aggression, only has TWO puppies in his litter, and is concerned about finding a home suitable for the one puppy that met goal?

Robert VanCamp had explained to me on that other posting (cause I was confused about the difference between protection dogs and Schutzund dogs)

And it isn't always necessary for a good working dog to be social and of a temperament that allows him to have free access to normal human behaviors and other dogs.

There are some very nice dogs that would be an absolute terror in a regular social pet life. . .but they are damn fine working critters.

so not sure of Howard's intent to possibly give this female pup to a family with children. But maybe they've raised many protection dogs in the past and know exactly what is involved.

Let me clear this up....again. There is nothing wrong with these pups in my eyes. I love them. I am keeping the male for myself and I will keep the female if I have to. My only concern was IF this type of behavior WILL IN THE FUTURE turn out to be handler aggression. I HAVE NEVER BEEN AROUND A DOG WITH HANDLER AGGRESSION. So I do not know what it looks like at all, let alone a young age. I will not put this dog around young children if I think it will be a problem. At the time I posted this this behavior concerned me, but after reading the posts and thinking about what was going on it made me think that the pup was wound up. Maybe she just plays rough. She did Growl violently FOR A PUP and it just concerned me, thats all. She has not shown this behavior since. Thank you all, now I have to get back to my, out of control, junkyard dogs!! :rolleyes:

Followed the link and read all the way through. Wow, that was a heck of a thread! I am going to offer no opinion on it and probably best to make this my last post! Goodbye to this thread and good luck to everyone from a completely neutral and somewhat confused new member. Just to be really clear: please don't try to enlighten me! Some things are better left alone. But thanks for giving me the background on the whole thing - didn't realize this was that deep. Again, bye. Jennie

Howard, yes. . .I would be worried about the possibility of handler aggression in a pup displaying these behaviors.

It isn't absolute, but I would be concerned enough myself to make sure the pup went to an experienced working home.

Howard,

Is this Brett's male?

Saw him work today.....

Vancamp:
Thanks for the info. I figured that would be the case, but I wanted some opinions from people that might have seen something like this before.

Sue:
Yes, it is Brett's dog. Him and I train together with Carl up in Franklin. Pike is such and awesome dog isnt he? Tougher than a coffin nail I tell you. Talk about obedient also. He was bred to my female and we got 2 healthy pups.

The male, Pike, is a nice dog. No issue with anyone new, sniffed the stroller and left baby alone. He has a least one child he is around, a 2 year old with no issue....

Pike lives in a house with 2 children. He is completely nuetral with strangers as is my female. Neither dog has social issues at all which is why the behavior that my pup was showing was a little confusing to me. It only happened those times mentioned and has not shown it since. Both pups are very social with people, but I have a feeling that the female will not tolerate an inappropriate correction as she grows up and matures.

Howard..perhaps the best thing to do is not to sell her and work with her as a pup in a non-aggravating manner one on one..if you are worried about children and potential handlers/owners.Get one on one with her...first.