My bad, Duane, I thought I had mis-stated.

I'm sorry that you had that experience. It would be nice if everyone got the same benefit of having a trainer give an honest evaluation at a fair price. My evaluation included everything from a hard look at Sadie's pedigree to proper fitting and use of the prong collar, and concluded with a plan for training that took into account her environmental stressors and drive limitations/capabilities. For someone new to training in drive, the hour was priceless.

 Quote: Duane Hull

Greg; that is "balanced" training. In the modern age of reward-based training, "positive reinforcement training" includes NO corrections nor tools which might be considered by the PC to be cruel or punishment. If you use marker training or any other reward-based, positive training methods combined with corrections, it is no longer considered, again by the PC, "positive reinforcement". The class that Jodi described fits that bill.

Understand. I was just answering the OP's question if I had ever gone through positive reinforcement training and came away 100 times worse off. In this case, I may not have walked away 100 times worse off but we clearly didn't benefit very much either, mainly because they weren't able to address the needs of my dog under their training philosophy.

The more balanced training I described was much more beneficial in our case although some of the things they touched on would've been frowned upon by a positive reinforcement-only trainer.

 Quote: Jodi Moen

Well, I can't say we came out 100x's worse, more that I came out feeling gypped and out of pocket for nothing, although I learned some valuable lessons: I learned the type of trainer that was not a good fit for Amber and I, I learned to be extremely wary of handing over my money to a trainer who demands full payment before classes even start. I learned my dog was a "square" peg who wouldn't fit in a "round" hole. I learned the type of trainer in future to avoid, I learned to trust my intuition more when I'm not 100% sure.
I can't say the trainer we worked with was bad just way out of her league with a high drive truly reactive dog, vs. an unsocialized one. The drop out rate of her class was a big clue, and to my knowledge she is no longer training, although at the end of her last class she did point me to two invaluable resources that have really made a difference.

Such positive thinking! I did learn a lot!
And the owner of the place does really good with most dogs!
I met a lot of friends too!
Its just my dog, it wasn't working for her.

 Quote: David Winners

 Quote: Brianah Maloney

...So she walked on over to us grabbed the lead, gave my dog a correction, eye contact, and a firm "NO"!



...And of course, thank the lord, i had a pinch collar on nice and snug.


...Has anybody else gone to a positive reinforcement only facility, and come out with a dog 100 times worse?

How is this positive reinforcement only?


Your post seems to carry a negative connotation towards positive only training, but your post is not an accurate representative of that type of training.

Yeah yeah, confusing! Sorry!
I have had a LONG LONG LONG life with this dog.

To sum things up as simple as possible: I went to another facility, they recommended "different techniques". I couldn't afford that trainers prices back then so i left them.
I went back to other trainer, she finally agreed to try things the other trainers way. She did her best, sadly it made things worse.
I went back to another trainer, i could afford, he helped me help myself a bit.
Later in life i went back to all american k9, where we both flourished.
We stopped going there, its far away. We go all around my area. All facilities, yet we do not take any classes.

though I MYSELF have had such negative experiences in a lot of my local PR only facilities, I have yet to meet a training facility or trainer i hate.
Sure, they are all different. Some worked better for me and my dog more than others. But no. I do not hate any facility itself, or training method itself. I respect e collar users as much as clicker users and so on.
Unlike a lot of people around here believe, i believe there is no "best training method". Each dog and owner is different, and has different needs.

 Quote: Duane Hull

It takes an hour of his time, which is valuable. For that reason, he charges an eval fee. I paid the $30 fee (which is less than the cost of a bite pillow), and it was money very well spent.

Wow! I have never payed anything under 100 for an eval! And usually i get like 30 minutes or so!
I agree! That IS money well spent!

 Quote: Greg Meyer

Understand. I was just answering the OP's question if I had ever gone through positive reinforcement training and came away 100 times worse off. In this case, I may not have walked away 100 times worse off but we clearly didn't benefit very much either, mainly because they weren't able to address the needs of my dog under their training philosophy.

The more balanced training I described was much more beneficial in our case although some of the things they touched on would've been frowned upon by a positive reinforcement-only trainer.

I went to my first dog lesson at a positive reinforcement only facility. Group classes with other dogs of many breeds. All dogs with "issues", and all of them just being introduced to the facility. E-collars borderline abuse, prong collars terribly frowned upon.

When i realized my dog was acting even worse than before we signed up for these PR only classes, i looked elsewhere.
Eventually we got into an excellent place.

This guy at the other facility had one dog in the facility that first day, a dog of his own. It calmly chewed a toy through the entire lesson. 15 minutes in my dog was more confident she was ever in the PR only facility.

At his facility, my dog was NEVER around anybody other than trained dogs, and trained workers or customers that had been there for many years.
He taught me about controlling my dog's environment. Actually, he taught me a whole lot! A lot of it was opposite of what the other facility taught me. (they made these prong collars to be abuse, and e-collars, out of the question.)

Too bad i had to leave him and go to the PR facility. Couldn't afford more classes with him til later in life.

Again, i was real young. So, coming back to the pos-re classes, the only one with a dog "acting up", and on a prong collar... Was pretty upsetting. Dirty looks all over.
I STILL get real dirty looks!
XD

The Schutzhund club I belonged to didn't allow physical correction of any kind. NONE! Not even in bite work.
I had many yrs of dog training before I joined but the club helped me tremendously in learning marker training.
The biggest negative I see with positive only is that it teaches nothing about pack leadership. That's a HUGE part of getting your dog's respect and the folks that left the club without learning anything were weak in that area. Their dogs just didn't respect them. lack of leadership. It's like teaching cute parlor trick yet the dog wont come when it's called.
The people that did the best were good dog people to start with and the club titled a number of dogs and still is doing so. The people that did well at the club with little to no training experience were people that understood what they were doing. Some do instinctively, some can learn and some never will.
Not to say that's the case in the instances here but all the knowledge in the world with ANY training method will not create respect from the dog or leadership.

 Quote: Bob Scott

The Schutzhund club I belonged to didn't allow physical correction of any kind. NONE! Not even in bite work.
I had many yrs of dog training before I joined but the club helped me tremendously in learning marker training.

I hope Bob won't be PO'd that I tell this: Bob took his GSD to SchH 3 with zero physical corrections in training any phase.





"The biggest negative I see with positive only is that it teaches nothing about pack leadership. That's a HUGE part of getting your dog's respect and the folks that left the club without learning anything were weak in that area. "

Big fat ditto. I'm not even saying that physical corrections have to be a big part of pack leadership. But It does seem that the all-posi classes and text sometimes completely disregard this crucial aspect of living with a dog.





ETA

I was thinking about physical corrections and that they are needed less from me as the years pass (although I do use them when I need to). Two significant reasons: learning to train what I want in place of training by correcting what I don't want, and learning marker training.

JMHO!

Edited by Connie Sutherland (02/20/2014 10:37 AM)
Edit reason: ETA

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

learning to train what I want in place of training by correcting what I don't want

BAM!!
(neon lights, dancing girls, etc, etc.)