I guess I should have been more clear, as for redoing it all - we're just going back to basics of what we should have done the day he came home - and that is train everyday. I agree that a dogs training never ends, they're never done learning, training and such. I personally believe that my expectations were set to high when he came home.

As for marker training, I don't quite follow - although when I think marker I think clicker. Again, I am new to this and am learning more and more as I read. Once I get some spending money I plan on picking up some dvd's to clearly understand better.

Basically what I am doing is going through each command ever day consistently to ensure he understands what I am asking him. I am not correcting him on any new commands that he doesn't already know, he's known "sit" "down" "wait" since he was a few months old. Now when I say he knows these commands, I mean he does them without hesitation consistently. Many times the only correction is a simple "No" and he then goes ahead and does the command.

As for the question about Pack Structure - Connie I did what many owners do (at least after reading the article about pack structure) I gave him way too much, way too early and allowed him to become the "alpha" so to speak.


I might have babbled, I'm at work and just typed this out quickly haha I look at our police dogs at work, and just drool over how obedient they are... that's all I want haha

 Quote: Rob Maltese

As for marker training, I don't quite follow - although when I think marker I think clicker. Again, I am new to this and am learning more and more as I read.

Rob,

Check out this link below that will take you to one of the very good e-articles Leerburg has provided. I think it will get you on a better footing in training new commands, reinforcing the training your dog has already had, and in overall building a relationship based on respect with your dog.

http://leerburg.com/markers.htm

I think you will find your relationship with your dog and the level of obedience you will achieve will be vastly improved if you steer away from the compulsion-based training you are practicing with your dog and head more toward positive training that you'll find with marker training. I was pretty old-school myself until I discovered marker training, through this website and from dog trainers we had used, and it changed my whole attitude, in a great way.

I think of marker training as a way to communicate.

Initially I was resistant as it seemed like "bribing" the dog with food. I was thinking I wished the dog to have a relationship with me as a person, not with food in my pocket.

Once they grasp that "yes" means a bit of food, somehow the whole world opens up and
"yes" quickly means to the dog "THAT's what she wants me to do". Soon the treats fall away and you just have willing communication.

It's really pretty amazing. Try it!

What I like about marker training is the way it makes us humans think about what we're communicating to our dogs. Dogs are masters of communication (verbal and non verbal) and no doubt we often confuse them when we say one thing with out words and another with our actions. With marker training we teach the dog (and ourselves!) the language first so then we're both on the same page with communication when we train.

That list of commands makes me think I know the style of training your dog was trained in. Pure e-collar avoidance training if it's the outfit I'm thinking of. Nothing wrong with e-collars but I don't like the long term results of that specific training if used by itself.

The dog is often given only one side of the coin. Punishment is used to both teach and motivate. You could contact them for "refresher" training or you can rework everything through markers. It won't take all that long. It would give the dog a MUCH clearer picture of what they're supposed to be doing, when they're supposed to do it, and why they would WANT to do it. A dog shouldn't have the final say in it but things are so much easier when the dog is motivated to comply in the first place.

"As for the question about Pack Structure - Connie I did what many owners do (at least after reading the article about pack structure) I gave him way too much, way too early and allowed him to become the "alpha" so to speak. "


What I meant is, what are the issues you now see as a result of this?

 Quote: Cathy Goessman

That list of commands makes me think I know the style of training your dog was trained in. Pure e-collar avoidance training if it's the outfit I'm thinking of. Nothing wrong with e-collars but I don't like the long term results of that specific training if used by itself.

The dog is often given only one side of the coin. Punishment is used to both teach and motivate. You could contact them for "refresher" training or you can rework everything through markers. It won't take all that long. It would give the dog a MUCH clearer picture of what they're supposed to be doing, when they're supposed to do it, and why they would WANT to do it. A dog shouldn't have the final say in it but things are so much easier when the dog is motivated to comply in the first place.

I wish there was someone local that would be willing to work with me to help show me this method, I'm all for different training methods and the way you explain the eCollar method is making sense in my head - for instance when the trainer was down doing his follow up with us, he was getting in his car and Axle LOVES car rids so he tried getting up in there with him. While having him off leash I was attempting to recall him and using the ecollar to continuously stem him till he recalled... it took quite a few times and Axle wasn't happy when he finally realized what was happening...

I'll be looking more into marker training I suppose.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

"As for the question about Pack Structure - Connie I did what many owners do (at least after reading the article about pack structure) I gave him way too much, way too early and allowed him to become the "alpha" so to speak. "


What I meant is, what are the issues you now see as a result of this?

It's very hard to explain, he tries to push us around physically (butt bumps and hip checks) and always tries to be the first out he door, first in the door, first in the car, first up the stairs, and so on.

 Quote: Rob Maltese

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

"As for the question about Pack Structure - Connie I did what many owners do (at least after reading the article about pack structure) I gave him way too much, way too early and allowed him to become the "alpha" so to speak. "


What I meant is, what are the issues you now see as a result of this?

It's very hard to explain, he tries to push us around physically (butt bumps and hip checks) and always tries to be the first out he door, first in the door, first in the car, first up the stairs, and so on.

Gotcha. He's pushy.

IMO, a bit of pack order reinforcement is called for.

I don't mean training .... pack structure is a little different. And I definitely don't mean alpha rolling or physical domination or anything like that.

I want to say that escalating corrections for uncertain obedience commands are not going to benefit you. Now I understand your first post, and the question about "Does correcting the dog given the manner below effect the respect for the handler, positively or negatively?" My own personal response is that unfair corrections will be a huge negative. This dog hasn't been set up for success yet ... we've talked about that above ... and that, to me, makes for unfair corrections.

When you have a chance, you'll want to read this http://leerburg.com/groundwork.htm

And maybe http://leerburg.com/308.htm


I'd probably be more focused right now on pack structure than on ob commands taught to him while away from you.


All JMO! I'd be focusing on some pack work, and learning about marker training in the
meantime.

 Quote: Greg Meyer

 Quote: Rob Maltese

As for marker training, I don't quite follow - although when I think marker I think clicker. Again, I am new to this and am learning more and more as I read.

Rob,

Check out this link below that will take you to one of the very good e-articles Leerburg has provided. I think it will get you on a better footing in training new commands, reinforcing the training your dog has already had, and in overall building a relationship based on respect with your dog.

http://leerburg.com/markers.htm

I think you will find your relationship with your dog and the level of obedience you will achieve will be vastly improved if you steer away from the compulsion-based training you are practicing with your dog and head more toward positive training that you'll find with marker training. I was pretty old-school myself until I discovered marker training, through this website and from dog trainers we had used, and it changed my whole attitude, in a great way.

Great article I'm currently picking through it now, thank you Greg. I look forward to purchasing the videos to learn more as well. The below quote sticks in my head and I will also explain below...

 Quote: Ed

When a dog exhibits a behavior we like the consequence is a high value reward. In marker training that reward is either a high value food treat or a high value toy that the dog really loves. If a dog does not perform a behavior the consequence is "No Reward." This is called a negative reinforcer. When a dog gets a negative reinforcer it must then repeat the exercises if it wants to get the high value reward

I notice myself doing this now with his ChuckIT ball which I believe he views as high value. I give command, he performs how I want, he gets his ball tossed for him. If I give command, he fails to perform it correctly, I give him a "No", then give command again if he then performs it correctly, I toss his ball.

If I understand marker training up to this point - that is what I am performing. Again, bare with me - for I am still reading and learning more about it. It seems very interesting and a positive, fun method for both handler & dog.