Replying to Rob's post .... Connie's answers in italics:

"As for understanding and a summery of the thread so far....

- Yes! is the positive marker, which ends the current exercise."

It frees the dog from the command he performed to earn the marker.



"- No extra chatter. Don't talk to your dog besides your markers. It adds distraction and will slow the process down."

I agree. And I wouldn't think about intermediate bridges yet. (In fact, I would hope that you would watch the first Ellis DVD before that.)




"- Continue Charging The Mark until when you say the marker "Yes!", the dog perks up and looks at you looking for that reward, and he's saying in his head "hey! where's my treat!" "

Yes, but I'm guessing that has probably already happened and you weren't watching for it. Didn't you mention 20+ repeats? So next time, watch his reaction. Once it's charged, it's charged, and you can start to train.



"- Timing is important, when you say your marker Yes! your mark has to be following immediately. Dog's are visual animals, if you say the marker at the same time you're moving your hand, your dog is taking a mental picture of you moving your hand not particularly the marker word. (Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is my understanding.)"

The timing part .... For now, yes. Later you'll be able to sometimes extend that time between marker and reward if need be, because the dog will have the solid history that tells him that the reward ALWAYS follows the marker.

The telegraphing part .... Yes, this is always important. I practiced marking and producing the reward from my bait bag in front of a mirror. (You'd be surprised how that hand can move all by itself!)



"- One thing that I remember picking up in the video that is crucial, if you say it, you pay it. What this means is, if you accidentally say "Yes!" at any time during the training...you have to give a reward. "

Not everyone agrees with that, but I do, 100%. To me, that marker means "reward coming," and I NEVER give an empty marker. I'd rather reward for nothing.




I really hope others will add to (and/or contradict!) what I've typed.

Connie, in hopes to not muck up the thread. Could you (or I can) edit the summary post I made and add your opinions? You can either add them in italics then at the bottom put that "Comments by Connie in italics" or something similar. I know as a new guy here I try not to read a bunch of pages of what looks to be teh same? I hope I don't offend you with that statement.



NOTE: Rob, your parts above are in quotes and mine in italics.

But I inserted a comment at the top.

C.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (05/14/2014 04:11 PM)
Edit reason: mod note

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

A new "retrieve" thread would be better for expanding on it.

Connie, thank you for your opinions. I value everyones' opinions because you all have more experience in this process that I do. Forgive me for the dumb questions I may ask, the needless threads I will have to create but sometime in the future - hopefully they can be searchable by rookies who come asking the same questions.


I have created a new thread available for discussion called Rules of Toy Rewards. Currently having some posting issues but it will be there!

self-deleted


(I was going to fix the broken post but the poster did.)

Edited by Connie Sutherland (05/14/2014 04:08 PM)
Edit reason: self-delete

 Quote: Rob Maltese

... I have created a new thread available for discussion called Rules of Toy Rewards.

Yes, I saw that. To readers, it's at http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=34175&page=1#390961


Rob, I know how it is when you jump into an absorbing and rewarding new interest. You want to do everything NOW.

But I keep thinking that you might be getting way ahead of yourself.

What you need to do, IMHO, is make sure the marker is charged and then use marker training to train a new and simple command.

A new command (a simple one) ... this should be the next step.

And whatever new and simple command you decide to work on first, you don't want to complicate it with added steps.

A simple command is something like "sit" (using a lure), or "place," or maybe a simple hand target.*


I'm about 99.99% sure this dog was compulsion trained. The best thing to do now, IMO, is to make training a pleasure to you both. And set the dog up for success by keeping it simple and by eliminating all possibility of confusion.

Teach a simple new command and start building that bonding history of partnership success.

Then tell us how that went and what questions arose.








*

Simple hand target:
Hold out an open hand in front of your dog, a couple of inches from his snout. He'll most likely move up to sniff it. The second his nose touches your palm, mark and reward (from the other hand).

Rob said via PM that yes, the dog gets it (the marker is charged) and his plan is to train a simple new command.





I'm looking forward to reading about it! :-)

Yes tomorrow will start the hand touch command. As stated via PM to Connie I will also be working with a co-worker who is a K9 cop hopefully in the near future who uses markers to train his working dog.

100% agree with all of Connie's comments.

I would only add that the slower you go and the more you break down each behavior the better both you and the dog will be.

Do the marker charging correctly and you will be amazed at how easily things will connect for the dog.

Be patient! With 5o+ yrs of training that was the hardest behavior to teach....myself.

Started markers 10 or so yrs ago with the help of a Schutzhund club and that was a quantum leap for me.

Checking in.

We started this morning about 10 minutes ago with the hand touch. All was going well, marks were good, timing was good, placement needed work so I adjusted that. Axle seemed like he was starting to get it. Then he began getting very frustrated, would start jumping with both paws at my hand, also mouthing and barking. He's currently put away for a few minutes so I can refocus myself. I am going to try to record a video for feedback and just to show progress over time.

Question would be, when he is jumping and mouthing my hand - do I give the "Nope" marker and start again or do I just let him keep trying to figure it out?

You should have seen sighs that the dog had had enough before it got to that point & stopped. You need to learn to 'read' your dog.

Try only for 2-3 reps in a session & then quit. End the session on playing tug or tossing a ball & playing with him to keep it all fun. This dog needs to go very slowly & learn that training can be & is FUN. 2-3 reps 5 sessions a day is far better then 10 reps 2 sessions a day for this dog. Remember you are working with a young dog.

Remember what I said to you about pushing & stressing this dog due to his training background. You don't want him to shut down to training.

SLOW DOWN.