Some of it depends on the dog's personality as well. I popped my Cattle Dog hard enough with a prong to make him yelp in public for ignoring a sit command the other day. It's a very thoroughly proofed command with him and he was flipping me the doggy middle finger. Non-reward won't motivate him to comply because he is intrinsically motivated to be independent. Non-reward would actually be reinforcing for him.

I wouldn't DREAM of doing the same thing with Rogue. A soft "nope" followed by modifying the criteria so she can be successful works best for her. I have no doubt that it will be about 98% positive reinforcement with her. She wants to please versus Maverick who enjoys telling me to shove off. After that prong correction I suddenly had a very attentive Cattle Dog.

I do fully agree with what you said about the "Nope-Situation".
On the other hand I do believe in the second chance. With this I didn't mean I let him do what he's doing without reaction. I don't think: "Never mind, next time he'll do it better".

I need him to have a solid understnding of the "No". This in such cases is a prewarning. He has the chance to stop for example pulling on the leash or to decide to stop barking at someone.

If then he doesn't care about the "No" he will get a correction strong enough, that he will remember it next time. (A tug in the intensity, which depends on the sensitivity of the individual dog). This for misbehavior and only if he really knows how he has to behave.

If he doesn't perform a "Sit!" or "Down!" etc. I say "Wrong" and this is often enough for him to be reminded and he sits. If not, I repeat the whole thing quase immediately afterwards. But for such things without a correction how I described it.

Is this not corresponding to what you are doing? = "I would quit with a "Nope" for 10 -20 seconds then try it again."

I actually can not see the difference apart from using different words. Or don't you ever give stronger corrections than a repeating?

Ditto with Cathy on "it depends on the dog.

My 12 yr old GSD, trained with markers, would have no problem telling me to ef off if I would have gotten heavy handed with him.

My 9 yr old GSD, also trained with markers is still crushed with nothing but a harsh word.

Both are WG working line on top and Czech on the bottom but from different lines.

The younger one came from VERY hard lines both sire and dame.

His dame had produced a number of dog that went into police work yet he is a very handler soft dog.

 Quote: Lori Hall

For those of you who use marker training, I was talking to a person yesterday who works for a dog training company that believes you shouldn't use treats for training. They say if you do, the dog looks to the food for motivation and not the owner, and that limits the authority the owner has over the dog.

What are your thoughts about that?

1st Thought: OY VEY

2nd Thought: I used to say similar stuff: "Beg & Bribe", etc.

Now I say: AMEN to what our other regulars have Already posted !!!

My male rescue is a real Velcro Dobie who needs NO food treats,

but my female rescue paid NO attention Off-Lead without FOOD treats.

(I gave my male Treats only because my female Needed them, LOL}

But she has since Transitioned to working off-lead WITHOUT food Treats:

However, I still wear a Bait-Bag and reward RANDOMLY with Food

It's a "Reciprocating HAPPY Relationship" thing:

What makes THEM happy, makes ME happy, and Vice Versa !!!

Love is BETTER than Fear in any RELATIONSHIP...

But if & when a Correction for WILLFUL "blow-offs" is Needed,

my female wears an E-Collar while working Off-Lead.

Candi said

"Love is BETTER than Fear in any RELATIONSHIP..."


I would respectfully change that to good leadership and management is better then fear in any relationship.

To many folks "love" their puppy/dog with no thoughts of any sort of training because "my puppy/dog wont love me anymore if I make him do that".

 Quote: Bob Scott

Candi said

"Love is BETTER than Fear in any RELATIONSHIP..."


I would respectfully change that to good leadership and management is better then fear in any relationship.

To many folks "love" their puppy/dog with no thoughts of any sort of training because "my puppy/dog wont love me anymore if I make him do that".

That sounds like parents I know too!!

As most of us know......HANDLER softness has nothing to do with how hard and Seriously a well trained police or PP dog will engage a bad guy. One has nothing to do with the other.

Your relationship with you dog is the key to any good training. One with leadership, fairness & respect.

 Quote: Candi Campbell

 Quote: Lori Hall

For those of you who use marker training, I was talking to a person yesterday who works for a dog training company that believes you shouldn't use treats for training. They say if you do, the dog looks to the food for motivation and not the owner, and that limits the authority the owner has over the dog.

What are your thoughts about that?

1st Thought: OY VEY

2nd Thought: I used to say similar stuff: "Beg & Bribe", etc.

Now I say: AMEN to what our other regulars have Already posted !!!

My male rescue is a real Velcro Dobie who needs NO food treats,

but my female rescue paid NO attention Off-Lead without FOOD treats.

(I gave my male Treats only because my female Needed them, LOL}

But she has since Transitioned to working off-lead WITHOUT food Treats:

However, I still wear a Bait-Bag and reward RANDOMLY with Food

It's a "Reciprocating HAPPY Relationship" thing:

What makes THEM happy, makes ME happy, and Vice Versa !!!

Love is BETTER than Fear in any RELATIONSHIP...

But if & when a Correction for WILLFUL "blow-offs" is Needed,

my female wears an E-Collar while working Off-Lead.

HEY, Bob & Lori, just a Doggone Minute here !!!

How did I suddenly become the "doggie-parent / fur-baby" Village Idiot ???

Maybe I worded my post "idiotically", LOL, but...

I stand by my Original Claim:

Love IS BETTER than Fear in ANY RELATIONSHIP

I can FORCE my dogs to Obey by making them FEAR some Punishment...

Or on the other hand, I can Start with POSITIVE MARKER Training:

And by Laying a Foundation of reward-based (PMO) Initial Training,

I can Better Imprint a LOVE of COMPLIANCE on My Dogs, as in:

"When I Obey, then GOOD Things HAPPEN"...

As Opposed to, "When I Mess-Up, then BAD Things HAPPEN"...

BUT after they're properly Proofed, they do LEARN the Next step:

"If I Then FLIP-OFF my Owner, the Wrath-of-Khan STRIKES me Hard".

Candi that wasn't meant as a personal attack. If taken that way I do apologize.

I think that the people on LB are here to give and take advice/help to avoid the situations I mentioned.

My old neighborhood was full of Pits, Rotts, anything "mean" looking on chains and it was very rare to see a well mannered dog walking correctly on a leash.

When I moved where I'm at now just about 9yrs ago It's VERY common to see fat, happily unmannered dogs dragging their owners down the street.

It's also very common for me to be working on mu yard in the front and side yards (corner house) with both my GSDs quietly laying on the lawn and totally ignoring the yapping, lunging "furbabies" and telling me how wonderful my dogs mind me.

If they stop to ask questions then I'm gald to talk and offer suggestions when asked.

What I posted above is the norm for comments to my suggestions.

Oh, my baby could never do that or I just can't get mad at her for pooping in the house cause she's so devestated when I see it.


I could go on and on and can't/could never understand this thought process.

The first dog I trained was when I was 12. I did it with a book and the help of an old bird dog man across the street and I've never looked back.

I've loved every single dog I've had and cried like a baby any and every time I lost one.

I will do so again when I loose the two I now have but they are my dogs, not my babies.

Apologies again if you took my comment wrong.

 Quote: Bob Scott

Candi that wasn't meant as a personal attack. If taken that way I do apologize.

I think that the people on LB are here to give and take advice/help to avoid the situations I mentioned.

My old neighborhood was full of Pits, Rotts, anything "mean" looking on chains and it was very rare to see a well mannered dog walking correctly on a leash.

When I moved where I'm at now just about 9yrs ago It's VERY common to see fat, happily unmannered dogs dragging their owners down the street.

It's also very common for me to be working on mu yard in the front and side yards (corner house) with both my GSDs quietly laying on the lawn and totally ignoring the yapping, lunging "furbabies" and telling me how wonderful my dogs mind me.

If they stop to ask questions then I'm gald to talk and offer suggestions when asked.

What I posted above is the norm for comments to my suggestions.

Oh, my baby could never do that or I just can't get mad at her for pooping in the house cause she's so devestated when I see it.


I could go on and on and can't/could never understand this thought process.

The first dog I trained was when I was 12. I did it with a book and the help of an old bird dog man across the street and I've never looked back.

I've loved every single dog I've had and cried like a baby any and every time I lost one.

I will do so again when I loose the two I now have but they are my dogs, not my babies.

Apologies again if you took my comment wrong.

THANKS for the clarification, Bob

I'm turning 68 next month, and grew up on Old School training methods...

NOT overly harsh Yank & Crank but LOTS of leash pops right from the get-go in Puppy OB Class -- You know the Drill

Yes, it WORKED certainly, but as you Always say here:

MARKER training is a Whole NEW Ballgame !!!

That's all I meant to convey, and Proper Corrections definitely have their PLACE -- So thanks again, Bob