Environmental problems are not only present in Mals but the GSD also. It is the single greatest reason I wash out Police Dog candidates! The guys who were doing breeding of the Mals in Northrhine Westfalia for the Police there found that it was a big problem in the breeding program and worked to decrease its incidence successfully. It is a genetic issue to be sure. The Mal that Ed talked about on his tape was mine. He was given to me by a breeder and was exposed to slick floors from the age of 7 weeks and even earlier by his breeder. I now test the young pups on different surfaces right away. If they react with any amount of concern to slick floors they are gone.

I think what everyone is fogetting is that KNPV is in Holland and we are in the US. The program was set up to train a Police Type dog. The Dutch have their eyes on certain dogs from puppies for the Police. They are either sold as pups and never make it to the KNPV cert. or sold as young adults and then go to the Police after their cert. These dogs never touch US soil. There is one Malinois female that I know of who made it to the Nationals a few years ago but didn't do so well who is a "real Police Dog" over there. She is owned and trained by a Police Officer and this year he takes another female to the PH II Nationals who is for real.

You can all kill me for this part also but I don't know of any of you have have taken a dog to a KNPV certificate so how does anyone know what it really takes. I did and let me tell you that Schuzhund is clild's play after doing that. Schutzhund is only hard because the handler and dog must be perfectly correct in patterns & performance but as far as the real work goes it can not compare. Prey or no prey, you still have to have a lot of dog there to work with.

As far as a real dog goes you will find them more in KNPV then in Schutzhund but you will find not so good ones in all places.

I have some questions to the Malinois detractors about this thread.
If the Malinois is so weak nerved and locked in prey drive, then why are there so many being used in police work?
What would a dog locked in prey drive do in a real situation where either he or his handler were physically attacked for real?
I would think that if the dog did not have defense and fight drive, then he would not make it through any certifications.

Kelly George and Dainne S:

I am not in doubt that the malls/GSD`s who are cert. in KNPV are "good" dogs. They are good at what they do. They are showing skills in a very limited enviroment. I know that the KNPV dogs is beeing put through some fairly "hard" situations. But! A good KNPV dog can preform well in trials without having strong nerves. It is just a matter of how mush strain the dog is capable of taking before it gets it bite. And all this strain can perfecktly well be done to a dog working in prey nearly at all times.

I think Kevin Sheldal is closest to the answer. The dogs in KNPV don`t have to show good nerves in a constantly changing environment, such as a police dog will have to. Therefor you must depend upon the fact that your dogs working ability is not touched by an environment which will be different every time you use the dog. And here you see the difference between a good sport/KNPV dog and a good police dog.

And just to have said it, there are KNPV dog suited to do police work.But not MANY.

Dianne,
I don't think that anyone here is trying to denegrade the program. This KNPV dogs that are so great they never make U.S. soil is not what I observed upon visiting Holland's police dog schools. The fact is and I quote "we are short the number of dogs we have positions for because Americans buy the good ones at a higher price than we can pay" this is from the past director of the police dog training center in Rotterdam in 1997. I was also accosted at a regional ch. trial by a KNPV member who was not too happy that "all our good breeding stock is being bought by Americans" . The fact that a large percentage of dogs are prey dogs (an important attribute) in the KNPV program is one for people to understand, not to try to change (as the success of the program is obvious and unique) or to use to place the KNPV as less than program......whatever. The comment that no one who hasn't KNPV titled a dog can understand is pretty lame also as it directs the conversation away from the attributes of the dogs to individual accompishments and creates a greater than thou in the dog world attitude that simply defies the purpose of understanding the character of the dogs that has been the intent of the discussion. Way too many people here in the US have put a lot of these dogs into service as PSD's (I don't mean just sold a dog to a cop, I mean actively maintained a service dog and applied it). When the dogs first came over from Holland it gave the uninitiated headaches. Though this perspective is not the same as placing a certificate on the dog it is one that MOST dutch KNPV members have also never had. The oportunity for Americans to do KNPV does not exist now that membership is for the Dutch only so unless you're able through being a KNPV member prior to the decision? or by moving there? I'm afraid the circular argument of you can't know unless you've done it will be useful to those that wish to single themselves out as having a special perspective. The effort that goes into training a dog for the top of any sport is immense, one is not easier than the other at the top, though some sports have a entry level, and simpler formats to appeal to a broad group of dog enthusiasts that does not exist in KNPV (and rightfully so as KNPV seems to me to be rooted in the civic attitude of producing a tool with a few intense competitors mixed in)does not make it a lesser program. More police dogs still come from IPO/SchH based programs than from the KNPV anywhere outside Holland. And, I certainly didn't see an increase in PSD use and application, and expertise in Holland above the Germans (where SchH was born)when it came to active service police dogs.
I will also add that about 80% of the police dogs I put on the street are from Holland (some from IPO programs) and that the overwhelming reason is $$$. The unregistered Mals in particular are cheap compared to an equal quality GSD. I just don't have to compete with the civilian market so much for these dogs. It is simple economics. The Dutch have a tremendous history in working dogs, and I enjoy visiting with the Dutch dogmen very much. It is always pleasurable. I have also learned much from them and hope to learn more. But, my critical evaluation of every dog will stand. I am particular about what dog is applied in what environment. In doing this identifying the attributes each program as well as each breed and each individual has is important. It isn't directed at a program or a culture, it is directed at the task at hand which is police work. Originally posted by Dainne S:
I think what everyone is fogetting is that KNPV is in Holland and we are in the US. The program was set up to train a Police Type dog. The Dutch have their eyes on certain dogs from puppies for the Police. They are either sold as pups and never make it to the KNPV cert. or sold as young adults and then go to the Police after their cert. These dogs never touch US soil. There is one Malinois female that I know of who made it to the Nationals a few years ago but didn't do so well who is a "real Police Dog" over there. She is owned and trained by a Police Officer and this year he takes another female to the PH II Nationals who is for real.

You can all kill me for this part also but I don't know of any of you have have taken a dog to a KNPV certificate so how does anyone know what it really takes. I did and let me tell you that Schuzhund is clild's play after doing that. Schutzhund is only hard because the handler and dog must be perfectly correct in patterns & performance but as far as the real work goes it can not compare. Prey or no prey, you still have to have a lot of dog there to work with.

As far as a real dog goes you will find them more in KNPV then in Schutzhund but you will find not so good ones in all places.

Well, it seems that this topic has touched a few nerves. Anyway you slice, it there are bad dogs in every breed. The Mals. seem to be more prone to it. Keven while I do not know him, have seen some videos of him working and read some article that he has written, feel that he is quilified relaying the knowledge that he has obtained from Europe, and it seems that people who know what they are doing,are saying, from all around the world are agreeing with this point.
For you to run Schutzhund down well let me tell you something. I have seen you handle at a DVG club in Florida and then you invited me to your French Ring club. Now you are an expert on KNPV. Could it be that noone or very few people in this country have any first hand knowledge of KNPV, so you feel you are better then them as, you do. Childs play. What kind of sports person are you? Your handling leaves alot to be desired while anyone should be able to improve.
KNPV is a great sport, but so is Schutzhund. If KNPV was so great and the dogs are too, then why can't Germany just buy dogs from there for thier service dogs. Because they are not Gods answer to the problem. Get real.
I have whipped and have watched KNPV dogs shut down, whne there is not a suit aor sleeve around, and they have Met Lof points. THe same with schutzhund dogs, but it is common with Mals, for them to be spooky, and high prey dogs. YOu can mask problems that dogs have with nerves with prey drive, but at the end of the day it will show up sooner or later.
With that said I have seen excellent Mals in Police, Schutzhund, and KNPV titled ones. I guess Diane you feel you are a better handler and trainier because you have competed in KNPV,well join the real world.

In my opinion, had KNPV come to this country in 1972 or 1973- rather than Schutzhund - we would see the KNPV sport be where schutzhund is today.

There is no tracking, schutzhund people would cut off their arm if they did not have to track for a title. The clubs can work on a small fields. The training is fun and the exercises are not difficult (dispite what some say) When you see the step by step training its not roket science.

So back to the thread. KNPV is a sport based on prey drive (as Schutzhund is) and there are a lot of KNPV dogs that could not police work if their life depended on it - just as the vast majority of GSD's with Schutzhund titled cannot do police work if their life depended on it.

So whats that mean? - nothing other than people need to be careful about making claims that just because a dog is a titled dog it is somehow geentically guaranteed to be able to d police work.

That is a good point that Ed has. The truth is a good dog is where you find him/her. Titles show something about a dog, but not everything. I have seen many dogs that will never be titled and are far better animals then a lot of titled dogs that are champions.

Mika,
The dog that I am referring to, K-9 Barry, was titled but went through the extra training needed and now is a very good police dog. He has had several successful arrests in the two months the department has had him. There was one case recently where the car thief fled and they tracked him to a culvert where water was still at. Barry has very good nerves and temperament. I guess he is one of the exceptions to the rule that you mention? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

To: Michael Taylor is that Miss or Mr? I don&#039;t even know you or my impression was not something worth remembering anyway. I have not a clue when I met you but if a FR club was around it may have been many, many years ago because we don&#039;t have a FR club. I guess everyone has to start somewhere and if you get your rocks off degrading someone publicly go right ahead. I was talking about a sport and not an individual which is something I would never do publicly but would like to know where you train and where you compete so I can come and watch. Just because I don&#039;t think Schutzhund is the toughest sport in the world does not make me a bad person. I actually think Schutzhund is a tough sport in obedience and you have to have a real good dog (in prey) to get to the top to maintain that obedience all through the program. I guess that is the difference in SchH vs KNPV as you said.. They judge the handling and not the dog.