I agree with Cindy and Ellen. Herding instincts, I believe in, but they all (with a few exceptions) come from the dog's prey drive.

well, i know his herding instinct is strong. i haven't ever seen much prey drive in him. i've also never had normal dogs.......

he does have a lot of work drive. and almost zero play drive. maybe i'm used to seeing prey drive on dogs that also have play drive and it looks different?

if i'm missing something, i'd be happy to hear it. or maybe he's just an anomaly?

This question has come up from time to time on the Herders-L list. Many of the experts feel that there are two separate drives that motivate dogs to herd. One is "truncated" prey drive, with the kill part of prey drive largely removed. The other drive is quite different, and has more to do with a drive to control and dominate the flock/herd. "Bossiness" is a commonly used term for this trait. The bossy herding dog treats the flock/herd as subordinate pack members. This is especially evident when one observes how herding dogs behave with baby livestock. Not prey behavior at all, but more gentle, sometimes nurturing... as a pack leader might react toward baby pack members.

One of the herding breeds, English shepherds (no, not English GSDs and not English sheepdogs), are generally relatively low in prey drive compared to herding bred GSDs, border collies, or Aussies. But ES have a lot of the "bossiness" character trait. ES do not, however, generally have rank/dominance issues with their handlers. The reason ES have this balance of herding drives (relatively low prey / high bossiness) is due to their working function on small farms. There isn't the need for high prey drive since there isn't as much herding to do on small farms as there is on a big ranch or the all day large flock work of GSDs. Also, too much prey drive can be detrimental as ES are left with the livestock unattended... doing double duty as livestock guardian dogs. Many (not all) high prey drive dogs cannot be trusted with livestock (especially poultry) unattended. ES also have a strong sense of order... they know where the livestock on the small farm are supposed to be and will independently put them there, etc. They are rules enforcers... hence the need for more bossiness.

For more information on this subject, I suggest joining the Herders-L list and searching the archives for the subject "What makes a herding dog tick?". It was an excellent thread.

Laura Sanborn

In "Dogs" by Coppinger & Coppinger, the authors write about this. They outline a specific sequence of behaviors that make up prey drive as a whole. It goes something like (I don't have the book, so am going from memory, so feel free to correct me):

stalk/chase/grab bite/kill bite/dissect

Different breeds either possess or are missing specific behaviors in that sequence. For example, a Labrador's sequence might be:

chase/grab bite/dissect

While a Border Collie's sequence might be:

stalk/chase/grab bite

I think I'm oversimplifying it, but at the time I read it, it made sense! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, the point is that herding behavior is rooted in prey drive, just like retrieving.

<<Can a dog have alot of prey drive without having herding instinct? >>

Absolutely. In fact, I see that quite often.

Ulf

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Ulf Kintzel
White Clover Sheep Farm
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my gsd pup has tremendous herding instincts and constantly is herding me...she also has, I think, the targeted prey drive you're talking about...when playing ball with her she'll try and put it down to get a drink of water and the ball will roll or bounce when she puts it down...she CANNOT stand for it to get "away" from her and will not drink trying to control the ball...she also will let it roll away from her and then "sneak" up on it...her mom is from the Kirschental lines and you can watch her thinking when I'm trying to train her...hard dog and very stable nerves.

I agree with Cindy on this one -- Sighthounds have prey drive out the wazoo for live game (as do Akitas) but these breeds lack the aptitude for herding...

Pointers, for example, also hunt from prey drive -- but herding sure isn't they're forte' either <:-)

Here is my defination of Prey Drive – herding instinct is derived from prey drive. This is the drive to bite, catch/ kill prey. Prey drive is triggered by movement. Dogs in prey drive usually have the high pitch bark vs. the lower/deeper bark. Some people relate/equate prey drive to ‘play’ drive. A prey driven dog will chase with focus on the object it is pursuing and with the goal of catching it. The prey drive gives the intensity to the ‘play’ part of the drive. Strong prey drive (intensity of it) is needed for a good herding dog. This is needed for ‘follow’ through in tough circumstances etc.

Behaviors associated with Prey drive are: seeing/hearing; scenting/tracking ; stalking/chasing/pouncing; high pitched barking, shaking, tearing/ripping apart; biting.

Herding Instinct – this is not as easy to describe. Instincts may also vary within the different herding breeds of dogs depending on what they are bred to do. For the border collie you often see some of this in young pups as well as dogs. When I got Riggs as a pup, he showed this in abundance. He would go out and around ALL the dogs playing in the yard to bring them all in. I also see herding instinct in my german shepherds in abundance in the TENDING/BOUNDARY work. The instinct to hold a furrow/ border naturally. To work the side of the flock instead of going out behind it etc. For the german shepherd the grip is also part of the herding instinct we are looking for in young pups. The grip is genetic and we want to see pups gripping each other/young lambs etc on the neck and other acceptable areas. For some breeds it might be the ability to balance the stock to you. The ability to do a nice square flank, a nice pear shaped outrun. These things are not only taught but also BRED in. For those that lack the natural instinct it is taught. Sometimes the natural herding instinct has been taken out or diminished. For instance the dog that has continually gotten into trouble whenever it chased people/animals etc. Dogs without natural instinct can be obedience trained to work stock but most often need or are reliant on the handler to tell them every move to make. Dogs with TRUE herding instinct most often also have a ‘presence’ with stock. It is amazing when you see this in a real ‘green’ dog….that has never seen stock before

You can see variations in the expression of prey drive , even in the wild predators , wolves, cape hunting dogs etc. Some run and turn the prey heading them back to those that will finally bring it down, some will hamstring the prey to slow it down, so we have herding, heading and heeling canids , all in the same pack, but the instinct to catch the prey is behind all those jobs, but not all of the dogs do all of the jobs , but it is a nice feeling to work one with the balance of having all of them at his disposal.
Tony

Maybe someone can help me understand this...

We have goats, and I've been using and teaching Remi the opposite of herding (in my mind) and more of cutting.

I want him to cut out and hold off a particular goat.

He does a pretty good job and will get the goat away from the others, and put it in a corner. He will keep the goat there (or at least try really hard) and bite behind the horns if the goat gets too excited or tries to ram him.

Is this prey drive controlled or herding instict and drive?